GOLFMK8
GOLFMK7
GOLFMK6
GOLFMKV

Who has switched tunes between APR and Unitronic - and why?

grambles423

Automotive Engineer
You don't need an "octane sensor", and the only place I can imagine you'd use something like that is in a flex fuel car where stoich is wildly different.

The knock sensor is the great foot that stops the engine from being damaged. If you get bad gas, the engine can retard timing on the fly and even add fuel. Obviously, you don't want this to be happening, because you'll be losing power. But all things being equal, you can run a 93 octane map on 91 octane gas, you'll just make less power than you would on 91 because the quality of the gas is poorer than what the ECU was mapped for.

Right, but I guess my point was "How much do we want to rely on the knock sensor to do your timing?" Why not set a profile per octane and have the ability to advance internally prior to sensing knock rather than rely on your knock sensor to say "I'm not happy......RETARD ALL TIMING" (I'm assuming that we can account for all variables involved in the combustion process...etc. etc.) That way we gain every bit of power that we can, and not have to PULL anything away. It was more hypothetical and abstract than anything else.

How much pull is bad?

Also, don't be afraid of higher timing and lower boost, because that's how all these cars come from the factory. They run a ton of advance up top. When you bring the boost up, you need to bring the timing down. There's not a perfect recipe, and every engine is different.

The way Unitronic does things isn't inherently more dangerous, *unless* there is truth to this knock sensor deadening. If there is, all bets are off.

The lower boost in the midrange is going to account for the less midrange pull, and exacerbate the hyperkinetic nature and high rpm acceleration feelings of the engine up top with the K04, since there's some torque missing there.

If you really want to know, bring the cars to the track and see which has higher trap speeds.

To me, the style of tuning isn't in question re the APR K04 fiasco, the partial throttle drivability is. But I've heard they're revising the tune, and hopefully those customers having issues will be addressed.

This.
 

MovinOut

Banned
Are you guys relating to the dead zone in between shifts with APR k04 software and the fall off around 6600 rpms? haha that is what I was saying when I had my k04, it is like APR put double failsafe mechanisms on the already programmed stock ECU. I overboosted in my 135 yesterday by upshifting to 6th instead of downshifting to 4th and gave it the business and it threw me into limp for a minute before resuming normal driveability. The stock ECU is more than capable of sensing an issue and protecting your vehicle. Now 10 years ago, not so much.
 

grambles423

Automotive Engineer
Zach, its Lou, pls don't ban me lol. But from being in the 135i n54 platform for a bit, hybrid turbo is all the rage. I mean these guys go apeshit and pay 3000$ for 60 more hp than the stockers allow. But keep in mind, a Cobb protune is the standard for these hybrid turbos. I know you and I have had this discussion about porting a k04 but with that increased flow you can run less boost and more timing like we are seeing here. I really think someone should give this a shot with Maestro. There is a guy in the area with stage II Maestro, right? I really want to see him buy a hybrid and get a pro-tune that will work well within safety levels and out perform a k04 by 40-60 hp reliably.

Just FYI, the Moderators and swarming in like vultures now. Your account will probably be banned instantly. BUT....I will say this. You have a very good point and here's what I think:

Anyone could do anything to their stock turbos to make more power. But where is the line of safety? You gain flow...............but you lose integrity of the turbo itself. These things are already optimized to the fullest extent from the factory.

Here's something to gnaw on........A BW KKK-K03 turbocharger has better flow characteristics than the IHI. Since the EA888 engine has better head flow itself, why not commonize the K03 to an EA888 engine and tune it from there? THAT will probably gain you more power over the Stage 2 IHI. That number would be left to determine. Bronson and I had talked about doing this......................and may still do it just to see.

From my understanding, the Maestro cannot access the entire ECU protocol.
 

Noize

Go Kart Champion
Right, but I guess my point was "How much do we want to rely on the knock sensor to do your timing?" Why not set a profile per octane and have the ability to advance internally prior to sensing knock rather than rely on your knock sensor to say "I'm not happy......RETARD ALL TIMING" (I'm assuming that we can account for all variables involved in the combustion process...etc. etc.) That way we gain every bit of power that we can, and not have to PULL anything away. It was more hypothetical and abstract than anything else.

How much pull is bad?

The amount of timing reduction is proportionate to the severity of the knock detected. As long as the ECU has the authority range to pull it (and it's really broad), no amount of pull is bad. Your car will just be slow and suck in a severe instance of bad fuel, etc.

Bad happens if the knock sensor is taken out of play and detonation is allowed to occur unchecked in the combustion chamber. Pistons chip, crack, melt, hole, etc.
 

MovinOut

Banned
Just FYI, the Moderators and swarming in like vultures now. Your account will probably be banned instantly. BUT....I will say this. You have a very good point and here's what I think:

Anyone could do anything to their stock turbos to make more power. But where is the line of safety? You gain flow...............but you lose integrity of the turbo itself. These things are already optimized to the fullest extent from the factory.

Here's something to gnaw on........A BW KKK-K03 turbocharger has better flow characteristics than the IHI. Since the EA888 engine has better head flow itself, why not commonize the K03 to an EA888 engine and tune it from there? THAT will probably gain you more power over the Stage 2 IHI. That number would be left to determine. Bronson and I had talked about doing this......................and may still do it just to see.

Maestro cannot access the entire ECU protocol.


Whatever, if I get banned I get banned. I'm just trying to get into the techincal aspect and move things forward. I made good friends with an Aerospace Engineer and 1M and GTI owner who really wants to make progress on both vehicles that could really shed some good info on these subject matters if I don't get banned.


I'd also love to see an e85 mix test ran on a 100 octane file. Do any tunes have auto tune files out there right now?
 

FlyByGti1

Go Kart Champion
You don't need an "octane sensor", and the only place I can imagine you'd use something like that is in a flex fuel car where stoich is wildly different.

The knock sensor is the great foot that stops the engine from being damaged. If you get bad gas, the engine can retard timing on the fly and even add fuel. Obviously, you don't want this to be happening, because you'll be losing power. But all things being equal, you can run a 93 octane map on 91 octane gas, you'll just make less power than you would on 91 because the quality of the gas is poorer than what the ECU was mapped for.

Also, don't be afraid of higher timing and lower boost, because that's how all these cars come from the factory. They run a ton of advance up top. When you bring the boost up, you need to bring the timing down. There's not a perfect recipe, and every engine is different.

The way Unitronic does things isn't inherently more dangerous, *unless* there is truth to this knock sensor deadening. If there is, all bets are off.

The lower boost in the midrange is going to account for the less midrange pull, and exacerbate the hyperkinetic nature and high rpm acceleration feelings of the engine up top with the K04, since there's some torque missing there.

If you really want to know, bring the cars to the track and see which has higher trap speeds.

To me, the style of tuning isn't in question re the APR K04 fiasco, the partial throttle drivability is. But I've heard they're revising the tune, and hopefully those customers having issues will be addressed.

This would be interesting to find out. I like the idea of testing trap speeds to really see. I think for that to really work best, same conditions are needed. Same driver back to back runs pretty much immediately. It would be interesting to see how they compared with identical setups with nothing different but the tune

+1



I think that faith is attributed to consistency of gas. I KNOW that there is a pilot gas station near Honda that gives me slight increase in timing pull in 93OCT mode. Every time, no changes. BUT there is a Shell right next to it that rarely gives me that extra pull I see from the Pilot.

However, there is also some small gas stations here in the country that have 100% gasoline, no ethanol, but it tends to be Tier 2 and iffy sometimes and NEVER comes above 89oct.

I think after this thread I am going to pay more and more attention to everything gas wise while driving. I guess that means I should start putting full tanks of fuel in... that's a rarity for me
 

grambles423

Automotive Engineer
The amount of timing reduction is proportionate to the severity of the knock detected. As long as the ECU has the authority range to pull it (and it's really broad), no amount of pull is bad. Your car will just be slow and suck in a severe instance of bad fuel, etc.

Bad happens if the knock sensor is taken out of play and detonation is allowed to occur unchecked in the combustion chamber. Pistons chip, crack, melt, hole, etc.

COULD the ECU be thrown into limp mode at a certain point of sensed "severity"? That margin would need to be know.

X Amount of pull = Limp Mode or SOME sort of ECU failsafe?
 

MovinOut

Banned
COULD the ECU be thrown into limp mode at a certain point of sensed "severity"? That margin would need to be know.

X Amount of pull = Limp Mode or SOME sort of ECU failsafe?

I think it definitely would if the hpfp was getting overworked or the car began to over-boost. In fact, I'm almost certain it would. my 08 1 series has that technology so I'm sure the 10-13 mk6 would.



Grambles, why hasn't anyone run a 40/60 e85 blend to 93 octane on a 100 octane file? Do we have weak hpfps? Can the injectors not handle that? Seems like a viable option to race gas/water-meth if you can vag com the fueling system into a closed loop.
 

grambles423

Automotive Engineer
I'd also love to see an e85 mix test ran on a 100 octane file. Do any tunes have auto tune files out there right now?

Bronson, I believe, has worked on an E85 tune for his EA113 MKV.

I think after this thread I am going to pay more and more attention to everything gas wise while driving. I guess that means I should start putting full tanks of fuel in... that's a rarity for me

Yeah, it used to be TURBO THIS....TURBO THAT. N75!!! BOOST SPEC! BOOST ACTUAL! But I just never followed my timing, pull, advance, ignition, etc. etc.

Its ultimately the ENGINE making the power...the turbo is just a utensil.
 

grambles423

Automotive Engineer
I think it definitely would if the hpfp was getting overworked or the car began to over-boost. In fact, I'm almost certain it would. my 08 1 series has that technology so I'm sure the 10-13 mk6 would.

Well...the car already limps if overboosted. And it also limps for other irregularities. I was curious if a HIGH timing pull would be one of those irregularities. I would assume so. My car already freaks out and throws a code if the resistance across a bulb is +/- a few Ohms or fractional.

Grambles, why hasn't anyone run a 40/60 e85 blend to 93 octane on a 100 octane file? Do we have weak hpfps? Can the injectors not handle that? Seems like a viable option to race gas/water-meth if you can vag com the fueling system into a closed loop.

Not sure. I'd be curious about the DI injection pressure relative to quality of the fuel. I'm sure our system could take it......
 

MovinOut

Banned
Well...the car already limps if overboosted. And it also limps for other irregularities. I was curious if a HIGH timing pull would be one of those irregularities. I would assume so. My car already freaks out and throws a code if the resistance across a bulb is +/- a few Ohms or fractional.



Not sure. I'd be curious about the DI injection pressure relative to quality of the fuel. I'm sure our system could take it......

yeah I hear you, the injectors would be really maxed out with ethanol burning 20-30% quicker.

haha son of a bitch, I wish I still had my k04 I would take it right into ashburn and run a 50/50 blend on APR's 100 octane. I'm gonna track down Capuolong and see if he will do it if I pay for the gas.
 

Djunited1

Go Kart Champion
Yes the logs I posted are both running w/m. APR 93 oct tune and standard UNI 2+ tune.

Ah i see.makes sense now. Im actually running as much advance as that apr log except i dont have w/m. Interesting to see how much further i can advance timing with w/m. Great thread.
 

MaliciousMK6

Go Kart Champion
WOW!

Ive got to say this is the best most insightful thread ive seen on this forum for a long time. Thank you!

Reading this is really helping me understand the mentalities of the different tuners, I personally have Revo Stage 2 now and it is someone "jumpy" I doubt ill change to a different tuner for stage 2 but would really consider it for the K04 that will eventually find its way into my car. I like the Uni vs APR thread that compares polarizing mentalities but what about GIAC or Revo? There is a local GIAC tuner to me in socal thats a great shop and Ive considered them due to their excellent customer service and local.

I like the idea of advanced timing making the engine more efficient than stressing the turbo more, how does GIAC and Revo fit into this and what side of the fence are they on?
 

MovinOut

Banned
Ah i see.makes sense now. Im actually running as much advance as that apr log except i dont have w/m. Interesting to see how much further i can advance timing with w/m. Great thread.

Do you have e85 over there? Try to run the race gas file on it. I'm pretty sure it would produce great results.
 

Djunited1

Go Kart Champion
Do you have e85 over there? Try to run the race gas file on it. I'm pretty sure it would produce great results.

Unfortunately we dont. We have 98 unleaded and although it sucks its still better than the fuel you guys have. Grambles has my logs, ive asked him to graph them when he isnt busy.
 
Top