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FrankenTurbo F23T testing on K04 software

D

doug@frankenturbo

Turbos Galore
I have to say I'm surprised by the enthusiastic response to my proposal. And boy are there a lot of very good questions/answers posted here. Thanks very much all.

Here are a couple points:

I'm not going to have a "gang-bang" of testers. I want a high degree of control over the process and having several guys trying this at once is going to be a logistical challenge. Each tester will be provided with our boostvalve MBC kit, which I'll encourage them to use during initial shake-down testing. If we find the MBCs are unnecessary, we'll report on that. If they ARE necessary, we'll report that too. And if the testers' cars just run crappy, we'll (sadly) report that as well.

As for any official validation of what we're doing here, it's not going to happen. The tuning companies rightly would say they have no testing data to demonstrate our turbos are a good match. Lacking that, the only responsible thing to say is "we don't don't support that product". Heck, they couldn't be blamed for simply saying "DON'T"

I'm not looking to create trouble for the vendors who support this community. If the testing doesn't work, well it was worth a try and everyone will have learned something. The testers can take their rebates and apply them to a Maestro kit. But if the testing DOES work, it opens the door to a lot of potential customers. Naturally I like that idea.

Thx
 
Stage2Sasquatch

Stage2Sasquatch

Go Kart Champion
doug@frankenturbo said:

I'm not looking to create trouble for the vendors who support this community. If the testing doesn't work, well it was worth a try and everyone will have learned something. The testers can take their rebates and apply them to a Maestro kit. But if the testing DOES work, it opens the door to a lot of potential customers. Naturally I like that idea.

Thx
Click to expand...

So do I
 
F

FriggenT

Go Kart Champion
doug@frankenturbo said:
I have to say I'm surprised by the enthusiastic response to my proposal. And boy are there a lot of very good questions/answers posted here. Thanks very much all.

Here are a couple points:

I'm not going to have a "gang-bang" of testers. I want a high degree of control over the process and having several guys trying this at once is going to be a logistical challenge. Each tester will be provided with our boostvalve MBC kit, which I'll encourage them to use during initial shake-down testing. If we find the MBCs are unnecessary, we'll report on that. If they ARE necessary, we'll report that too. And if the testers' cars just run crappy, we'll (sadly) report that as well.

As for any official validation of what we're doing here, it's not going to happen. The tuning companies rightly would say they have no testing data to demonstrate our turbos are a good match. Lacking that, the only responsible thing to say is "we don't don't support that product". Heck, they couldn't be blamed for simply saying "DON'T"

I'm not looking to create trouble for the vendors who support this community. If the testing doesn't work, well it was worth a try and everyone will have learned something. The testers can take their rebates and apply them to a Maestro kit. But if the testing DOES work, it opens the door to a lot of potential customers. Naturally I like that idea.

Thx
Click to expand...

I like it!
 
B

blingdub

Go Kart Newbie
aside from the MBC, are the supporting mods for the F23T the same as K04? e.g. intake, downpipe, intercooler, etc.
 
flipflp

flipflp

Autocross Newbie
Correct, those would all be recommended. The F23T is K04-like in many ways.

For this test program, you would probably want to follow any recommendations given by your tuner especially.
 
F

FriggenT

Go Kart Champion
I pulled my mbc off today and since fixing my dv, there's no boost spikes as of yet with the DM software. Then again, as mentioned above, I've had my mbc closed the whole time I've had the turbo anyway.
 
D

doug@frankenturbo

Turbos Galore
blingdub said:
aside from the MBC, are the supporting mods for the F23T the same as K04? e.g. intake, downpipe, intercooler, etc.
Click to expand...

An F23T running on K04 software really ought to have the same supporting modifications as the software requires. With some software suppliers, an upgraded exhaust and intercooler are "mandatory". But with the Eurodyne base file neither is needed.

We've also certainly tested our turbo on limited modification support. The one in this video had a stock intercooler. It ran well, as you can see.

 
F

FriggenT

Go Kart Champion
doug@frankenturbo said:
An F23T running on K04 software really ought to have the same supporting modifications as the software requires. With some software suppliers, an upgraded exhaust and intercooler are "mandatory". But with the Eurodyne base file neither is needed.

We've also certainly tested our turbo on limited modification support. The one in this video had a stock intercooler. It ran well, as you can see.

Click to expand...

Honestly Doug, I would go with the Eurodyne software and get rai motorsports to dyno tune it, but I have a file that works well, even if not maxed out and don't want to spend 700-800.00 on the software and then Ray's expensive (great guy and shop) pricing.

I know you and Malone tuning are on the outs so to speak, but they are also fairly close to me and I wouldn't have to pay for the added software. I'd rather use that money to add meth injection :happyanim:
 
F

FriggenT

Go Kart Champion
Ok, I have a few emails out now for some custom tuning (I did contact malone tuning as well).

Now, I am considering a switch from my DM map after dyno. However, as I understand it, DM is pretty aggressive with their K04 tune, but you always see GIAC at the top of the 1/4 times. I realize this can't always be the best way to judge a tune either.

When I look at their H.O. tune you see good numbers on a mustang dyno which of course reads low depending on how it's calibrated.

For those out there who know these maps well, any info would be appreciated. If you are GIAC, UNI, etc and have logs to show which maps have the most potential, please do share!
 
flipflp

flipflp

Autocross Newbie
TL;DR I don't think any K04 tune is going to be too much different than another, and no K04 tune is going to take advantage of an F23T and outperform a custom tune.

Outside of GIACs EXTREME file (which was dyno'd on a combo of 104 octane AND W/M), I think that most K04 tunes are within a few % of each other. 350-370 crank HP on 91-93 octane with basic bolt ons. The limits of the turbo, pump fuel, etc really dictate that. Never been sure what "aggressive" means with off the shelf K04 tunes, especially when you're so hardware limited. Pushing timing with higher octane or w/m and tap dancing around surge are your only methods to improve, and even still the turbo will run out of steam up top. If you look at the graph on the GIAC EXTREME file, it just looks like a K03 Stage 2 tune on steroids:



On the street, that thing would be a burn out monster. If you remember with Rotary's last go on the mixed flow turbo, they exceeded 400ft lbs by QUITE A BIT, but it's so low it's not really usable without slicks, so they dialed back boost at onset to make a flatter more usable curve.

Most K04 tunes you see now have two "torque peaks", one at onset before surge and a second past the K04 surge point. This is due to K04s surge characteristics, and where a custom F23T tune would be most improved as the F23T doesn't have the same issues. Additionally you should see 5-10% more peak horsepower because of increased flow.

If you're looking to push your setup MP, get a custom tune. Done.
 
F

FriggenT

Go Kart Champion
flipflp said:
TL;DR I don't think any K04 tune is going to be too much different than another, and no K04 tune is going to take advantage of an F23T and outperform a custom tune.

Outside of GIACs EXTREME file (which was dyno'd on a combo of 104 octane AND W/M), I think that most K04 tunes are within a few % of each other. 350-370 crank HP on 91-93 octane with basic bolt ons. The limits of the turbo, pump fuel, etc really dictate that. Never been sure what "aggressive" means with off the shelf K04 tunes, especially when you're so hardware limited. Pushing timing with higher octane or w/m and tap dancing around surge are your only methods to improve, and even still the turbo will run out of steam up top. If you look at the graph on the GIAC EXTREME file, it just looks like a K03 Stage 2 tune on steroids:



On the street, that thing would be a burn out monster. If you remember with Rotary's last go on the mixed flow turbo, they exceeded 400ft lbs by QUITE A BIT, but it's so low it's not really usable without slicks, so they dialed back boost at onset to make a flatter more usable curve.

Most K04 tunes you see now have two "torque peaks", one at onset before surge and a second past the K04 surge point. This is due to K04s surge characteristics, and where a custom F23T tune would be most improved as the F23T doesn't have the same issues. Additionally you should see 5-10% more peak horsepower because of increased flow.

If you're looking to push your setup MP, get a custom tune. Done.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info man. What I was attempting to do was stay within the confines of this project for one, and 2 because DM is becoming increasingly hard to get a hold of.

As you mentioned, the tq is a major issue of traction. So in looking around at dyno numbers of different tunes, unis tune is 340/330, which seems it would suggest that maybe traction might be less of a problem. DMs file shows 330/360, which isn't bad since the power doesn't come on all of a sudden.

What has me curious is with the H.O. giac file (not the race fuel one) is that where that turbo drops off, would be a non issue for me since I can peak 27 and hold 25 all the way to redline. Just makes me wonder how the turbo would respond you know?

It's more just a curiosity thing I suppose.
 
D

divinevr6

Ready to race!
Those running UNITRONIC Stage 2+

what is your feed back and what other tweaks have you needed to make?
 
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