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Old 09-10-2009, 10:24 AM   #1
okra63
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Engine Question...

I realize there are tons of opinions, and explanations, but have a "real world" question. I've also done a good bit of reading on the differences between horsepower and torque, but here's what I'm wondering-all other things being equal (in theory), what would be the "experience" difference between an engine with greater torque than horsepower vs. an engine with greater (or even equal) horsepower than torque? Obviously I'm thinking TDI vs. 2.0Lturbo, DSG to remove the human factor. Thoughts?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:50 PM   #2
volsfan0911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okra63 View Post
I realize there are tons of opinions, and explanations, but have a "real world" question. I've also done a good bit of reading on the differences between horsepower and torque, but here's what I'm wondering-all other things being equal (in theory), what would be the "experience" difference between an engine with greater torque than horsepower vs. an engine with greater (or even equal) horsepower than torque? Obviously I'm thinking TDI vs. 2.0Lturbo, DSG to remove the human factor. Thoughts?

Thanks in advance.
Without getting too technical (see How Things Work or Wikipedia for the formulas, etc.) torque = "quick" whereas horsepower = "fast". I'll use relevant VW examples here - a 2009 GTI versus a 2009 Jetta TDI. The TDI pulls hard and feels very powerful from 1800 rpm through it's rev band to 4,000 rpm or so. In normal street driving, I interpret this as the car "jumping" from A to B pretty quickly and smoothly. The GTI (being a forced induction engine) is somewhat of an exception in that it has plenty of "grunt" but also the high end (higher rpm) "punch" and feels like it's sprinting for the redline. Best example I can provide is accelerating from 60-85 mph in 6th gear. TDI does it without downshifting and without any fuss or drama - simply step on the gas and the needle moves quickly. GTI will pull similarly in 6th or you can drop down a gear to 5th and the car will simply being doing 90 mph in a couple of eyeblinks.

Hope that helps.
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:20 PM   #3
dthomas53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okra63 View Post
I realize there are tons of opinions, and explanations, but have a "real world" question. I've also done a good bit of reading on the differences between horsepower and torque, but here's what I'm wondering-all other things being equal (in theory), what would be the "experience" difference between an engine with greater torque than horsepower vs. an engine with greater (or even equal) horsepower than torque? Obviously I'm thinking TDI vs. 2.0Lturbo, DSG to remove the human factor. Thoughts?

Thanks in advance.
I did a Google on this a few months ago when researching cars and came across this:

http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html

It's the first search result for "torque vs horspower", and really is a great walkthrough on the subject. The article can seem a bit daunting, as I even had to read some parts of it about three times over, but it's very good at explaining things in layman terms, while still including the (required) technical side of it.

I also recommend the following site, as it gives you hints on proper shifting, depending on your engine specs. Definitely a worthy read.

http://www.allpar.com/eek/hp-vs-torque.html
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:54 PM   #4
bubuski
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This is a very hard question, but I will try to steer away from the horsepower vs torque debate...very good opinions differ and I get brain freeze just thinking about it.

The real-world experince will differ from individual to individual and I feel you have to drive both to get a feel for yourself.

The DSG will take alot out from the "experience". But assuming a normal cruise without WOT(wide open trottle), With the specs you gave above, the only difference will be the petrol accelerating a little better in town, while the diesel accelerating better on the highway(lane change to scoot past a truck without florring the gas pedal).
That^^^ and the noise of a diesel are the only experience. I personally think a gas engine sounds better and will put a smile on your face each time you hit WOT.

With the DSG being too similar for me, lets throw in a 6-speed. From driving without WOT (just a civilized commute). I find VWs with Gas equipped engine better for stop-an-go traffic while the the diesel gets better when you are past third gear because you can ride wave of torque and not have to change gear often...the faster you go. Probably has to do more with gearing though as similar cars with different engines are always geared differently.

Going deeper, I would not say the USA TDI is alot cheaper to run,
Diesel is not as cheap as it used to be a few years ago. Diesel is only 8c/liter cheaper here. China and India growing indistilization is currently driving the cost up, so even though the TDI gets better milage, but could still take about 5 years to make it back. If you plan to keep it longer than 5years, it starts to save you more money as the engine can easily run up to 200k without issues compare with what you will be faced with on a gas engine.
- compared to the 2.5, I'll take the 2.5 for cost.
- compared to the GTI, I'll take the GTI for looks.

Cheapest Golf to rack up miles on will be the base 2.5.
Golf with more options, better performance(than 2.5) and better mileage will be a TDI(but it is too close to the GTI's pricetag)
For just Performance and looks, then the GTI.

Also, I will substitute your USA TDI for a GTD
GTD: 2.0L turbocharged diesel - 170 HP and 258 lb-ft of torque
GTI: 2.0L turbocharged gas - ~210 HP and 207 lb-ft of torque

The GTD has
- cleaner emmissions (for tree huggers who want to feel they are saving the planet)
- more torque
- more fuel efficient
- Quieter diesel rumble (compared to the 80s and 90s)

The GTI has
- petrol,
- better acceleration from stop.
- sounds better.
- Nice rev range.
- Faster than the GTD on a track or when using WOT.

So...if we get the Euro GTD here (Engine, bumper and seats) about $2000 more than the GTI like it is in Europe(~900euros), then my order would have been for a GTD instead of a GTI. But is will still be a tough sell for VW.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:12 PM   #5
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Torque is what lays you back in your seat. It contributes to the thrill factor of driving. You would think that horsepower and torque are synonymous... but they aren't.

A great example would be a Honda Civic Si. It has the same HP as a GTi, but less torque and because of that feels very linear when you accelerate. Because of it's low overall torque it doesn't put you back in the seat like the GTi does. Which is why I find the Si a very boring car and would never own one! Turbo-charged FTW.
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:24 AM   #6
okra63
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You guys are awesome...thanks!
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Old 10-07-2009, 09:43 AM   #7
SilverDSG
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Quick note on the GTD. As far as I have read the GTD is not as sporty a ride as the GTI. The GTD only has the Sports Suspension from the GT models not the GTI setup.

Having driven owned a Seat Leon (mk2) 140bhp TDI Sport for the last few years before swapping it for my 1.4TSI GT (160bhp) I feel that the torque adds to the driving satisfaction but the diesel doesnt like the sprint. It great once its moving but you're relying on the turbo for any real power.

Diesels also rev lower requiring a change at around 4500rpm which can lead to it feeling like you are rowing it along with the gear stick. Oh and however you try and get away from it, the diesel will never sound as good. The VW diesels are pretty quiet but they still sound like a tractor.

On economy The diesel used to get between 425-475 miles a tank. My TSI petrol gets around 410-460 so there is not really that much in it (but the DSG helps alot there - would probablybe more like 385-420 with a manual)
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Old 11-03-2009, 01:14 AM   #8
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To clarify this thread.... the only thing that is a measurable force is TORQUE. "Horsepower" is a calculated value from the torque produced at each RPM.

Do the math yourself... HP = (Torque x RPM) / 5252. Which is why HP/Torque graphs always cross at 5252 rpm.
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Old 11-03-2009, 01:25 AM   #9
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completely unrelated but I found out my block is iron and I'm one happy camper! For some reason I thought the VW 2.0 turbo engines were aluminum like the mazdaspeed 3 and 6. -----> very delicate engines.
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:50 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Tecni View Post
completely unrelated but I found out my block is iron and I'm one happy camper! For some reason I thought the VW 2.0 turbo engines were aluminum like the mazdaspeed 3 and 6. -----> very delicate engines.
yeah, its still iron, little bit outdated but its tougher. i think they wanted it to be iron to save on costs and as u can see for the golf R, more turbo charging limits?

but it does come at a weight cost, as u can see the GTI is alot heavier than its rivals
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