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Old 08-15-2013, 01:23 PM   #99
Balt21
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Hmm the link to that patent is pretty interesting. I skipped down to where I found the part about keeping the engine above 3000 rpm for 20 min as I don't have the time to read the entire thing, so I may have missed something.

With that said, here are my thoughts:
1. If the engine just needs to be above 3000 rpm, cruising in 6th at freeway speeds is what, 3100-3200? I would be interested to see what the valves look like on a car that has a long commute. Theoretically, if you have a 30-40 minute commute on the freeway, your valves should be fine then, correct?

2. What do the valves look like on the tuning companies (APR, UNI, GIAC, REVO) race/shop cars? Those probably see more high heat than any of our cars that we drive to/from work and push the go pedal on the on ramps. When on the track, the rpm is almost always (I would imagine) above 3000 rpm to stay in the power. Their valves should be spotless, right?

3. Assuming I am reading the patent correctly, it was filed in 2002 and published in 2005. Therefore, VW has known about these methods (and felt strongly enough to file a patent) for 11 years. If it really works, why haven't they put it in the car manual? They have an engine break in procedure in the manual, why not this if for nothing more than to cover their butt when someone wants their valves cleaned under warranty? All they would have to say is "your manual says to drive in this manner and the valves will be fine, clearly you didn't." Maybe if they put that in the manual and made the issue well known, they fear the consumer would see their product as inferior, thus not purchasing the car. If I were the average consumer (not on car forums/know about direct injection issues), I probably wouldn't know about carbon build up unless the dealer told me to drive a certain way before taking delivery of the car, or I took it in for service and the tech told me the valves need cleaned.

Obviously, I am being a bit of a skeptic, but in my opinion, those are valid arguments and I would love to see the first two proven wrong. Just because there is a patent, doesn't mean it is the solution.
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Old 08-15-2013, 01:42 PM   #100
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Hmm the link to that patent is pretty interesting. I skipped down to where I found the part about keeping the engine above 3000 rpm for 20 min as I don't have the time to read the entire thing, so I may have missed something.

With that said, here are my thoughts:
1. If the engine just needs to be above 3000 rpm, cruising in 6th at freeway speeds is what, 3100-3200? I would be interested to see what the valves look like on a car that has a long commute. Theoretically, if you have a 30-40 minute commute on the freeway, your valves should be fine then, correct?

2. What do the valves look like on the tuning companies (APR, UNI, GIAC, REVO) race/shop cars? Those probably see more high heat than any of our cars that we drive to/from work and push the go pedal on the on ramps. When on the track, the rpm is almost always (I would imagine) above 3000 rpm to stay in the power. Their valves should be spotless, right?

3. Assuming I am reading the patent correctly, it was filed in 2002 and published in 2005. Therefore, VW has known about these methods (and felt strongly enough to file a patent) for 11 years. If it really works, why haven't they put it in the car manual? They have an engine break in procedure in the manual, why not this if for nothing more than to cover their butt when someone wants their valves cleaned under warranty? All they would have to say is "your manual says to drive in this manner and the valves will be fine, clearly you didn't." Maybe if they put that in the manual and made the issue well known, they fear the consumer would see their product as inferior, thus not purchasing the car. If I were the average consumer (not on car forums/know about direct injection issues), I probably wouldn't know about carbon build up unless the dealer told me to drive a certain way before taking delivery of the car, or I took it in for service and the tech told me the valves need cleaned.

Obviously, I am being a bit of a skeptic, but in my opinion, those are valid arguments and I would love to see the first two proven wrong. Just because there is a patent, doesn't mean it is the solution.
cos then people would start whining about false MPG advertisements. I can't imagine beong instructed to run the motor at 3700 rpm for 20 mins once a week to blow out carbon AND lose fuel efficiency. LOL

In Europe, their FSIs/ TSI's don't carbonize their valves as much because their motors run in lean burn mode often...

maybe their fuel has something to do with it tooooo. who knows.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:04 PM   #101
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cos then people would start whining about false MPG advertisements. I can't imagine beong instructed to run the motor at 3700 rpm for 20 mins once a week to blow out carbon AND lose fuel efficiency. LOL

In Europe, their FSIs/ TSI's don't carbonize their valves as much because their motors run in lean burn mode often...

maybe their fuel has something to do with it tooooo. who knows.

Both my 1974 BMW 2002tii and my 1984 Rabbit GTI are doing 3,700 RPM at 65-70mph. I've gotten used to it, but I think drivers of modern cars will freak out over the noise and such. people are used to driving cars with a high top-speed and a LONG final drive.

That said, I've been driving my cars spiritidly (regular trips to redline) for years, and never had any mechanical problems as a result. Ever. Engines are designed to reciprocate within a given rpm range (indicated by the red line). You will not increase wear or damage on your car by operating it withing these ranges.

you will need to check your oil regularly and replace your timing equipment on time, but you should be doing this anyways.

i would bet that 90% of failures due to high engine speeds within factory specification are due to owners neglecting maintainance.

Just keep the oil clean and the revs up.
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Old 08-15-2013, 05:41 PM   #102
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Both my 1974 BMW 2002tii and my 1984 Rabbit GTI are doing 3,700 RPM at 65-70mph. I've gotten used to it, but I think drivers of modern cars will freak out over the noise and such. people are used to driving cars with a high top-speed and a LONG final drive.

That said, I've been driving my cars spiritidly (regular trips to redline) for years, and never had any mechanical problems as a result. Ever. Engines are designed to reciprocate within a given rpm range (indicated by the red line). You will not increase wear or damage on your car by operating it withing these ranges.

you will need to check your oil regularly and replace your timing equipment on time, but you should be doing this anyways.

i would bet that 90% of failures due to high engine speeds within factory specification are due to owners neglecting maintainance.

Just keep the oil clean and the revs up.
Most of us here have no trouble running our motors at 3700 rpm for an extended period of time. However, the vast masses will resist, especially because they won't be getting near the 32 mpg they were promised.

I had 91 Miata: car ran 3600 rpm at 70 mpg in top gear.

Engine loved every little rev... ran like tops when I sold it after 5 years.
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Old 08-15-2013, 05:56 PM   #103
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Try search. Seafoam is useless. Nothing much of anything gets burnt off. So all of the carbon is there and you might fry coils and possibly hydro-lock your motor. Please do not use this useless substance.
I would not use it for diesels as it contains alcohol but I've used on my A4 3.2 Quattro a few times and a few other gasoline motors with good results. The Audi is a DI as well and known for carbon build-up issues. To each his own.

I also notice a lot less carbon build-up using chevron 93.
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Old 08-15-2013, 06:47 PM   #104
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I accept the premise that high heat can clear carbon from the upside of the valves. But how do you really get an engine that hot for 20 minutes? To cruise at 80 mph in our cars, our engine needs to produce a whopping 27-28 horsepower. Even though the rpm may be at 3,100-3,200 rpm, it's barely working and doesn’t produce those coveted BTUs. If we run in a lower gear for higher rpm, the higher rpm may shake the valves more but it will not produce significantly more heat. You'll still burn essentially the same amount of fuel to produce that 28 hp.

Long bursts of acceleration will undoubtedly get the engine hot. But aside from a race track, where can anyone realistically drive full-on/back-off over and over again ......for 20 minutes straight? It would be nice if we had an Autobahn where we could cruise at 120 mph for 40 miles, but we don’t. Sorry, but I can’t see any of us actually getting the engine that hot for 20 minutes and taking advantage of this potential solution.
its realistic for anyone that lives in close proximity to a highway or freeway that isn't crawling with traffic all day. if all you do is drive to and from work during rush hr. then you are probably screwed but if you take the car out at night or are ever off during the week, its possible. i live in LA County but happen to be off of probably the last open freeway in southern california, the 210 east/west. i also have a lot of backroads near me. during the week if I am not working, i drive the wife's Tiguan during the day and at night, to get out of the house i'll take the GTI out and pretty much drive it hard for about 20-30 minutes. just getting out on the highway in 4th and 5th gear and pulling along at 4-4500rpms consistently. my drive to work is 70% highway and i do the same that way.. when i change the plugs at the 40k service i want to send a boroscope down there and see how things are looking buildup wise. ive been driving the way i mentioned since i had the car so im curious to see if the geniuses at VW are right.


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We can talk all day about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin but that's what VW recommends. That would be similar to a drive down the autobahn. And, interestingly, the carbon build up seems to be less of an issue there.
this. i think the buildup is definitely a symptom of the fact that many people spend most of the time in their cars idling or inching along in traffic, obviously not ideal conditions for any engine and even worse for ours.
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Old 11-03-2013, 12:27 PM   #105
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Any pics about the can installed? I'm really interesting in doing it...pls instructions....thx

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Have the dealership take pictures of the carbon! I would want to see it for myself. You wrote misfire on three cylinders. What is the link to the carbon build up? Are they implying the carbon build up is so bad that the intake valves no longer seat properly and you are getting backfires? Again, have them take pictures. And what was the deal with the intake manifold? Why are they replacing it under warranty? That is pretty major. Did it crack? Why? And gee, maybe that might cause a misfire too.

As an aside, gasoline has absolutely nothing to do with carbon build up on the topside of the intake valves. If that is the carbon buildup they mean, the dealership is talking out of its ass. Carbon build up on the top of the valves can ONLY be created by contaminants suspended in the “intake” air stream. The gasoline is directly injected into the cylinder. How would that affect anything in the manifold or ports? Most likely the carbon build up is from the PCV valve.

If by chance the carbon build up is genuinely this bad, that is a symptom of another problem. Does this mean you have excessive blow by? Are your rings bad? Are bad rings covered under warranty? Have them run a compression check. This whole thing smells fishy to me, unless of course you are Stage 1 or 2. That would explain excessive blow-by.


And on the subject of catch cans, I have a homemade one that cost a whopping $20 total (can, tubing, connectors, etc.) It works flawlessly. Each month I remove at least 4-5oz. of fluid. To me, that is a lot. I know several people here claim catch-cans do nothing, but common sense tells me that much oily fluid can only be bad for the car. Aside from EGR gas, which is not oily, what else could cause the carbon build up anyway? Cheap insurance.
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Old 11-03-2013, 12:46 PM   #106
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Any pics about the can installed? I'm really interesting in doing it...pls instructions....thx
They dont work and its been proven. Drive your car out of traffic and get the motor fully warm. The patent from Audi shows 20min above 3000rpm will slow or negate the build up of this. Easier said than done depending on lifestyle.

Beyond that save some money for a cleaning at some point if you plan long term ownership with the GTi. Not having a fuel on the valves is the main cause of carbon build up. Cars with port injection with fuel washing the valves have very little buildup issues. Its a simple function of the injection design.

Its a bit less of a problem here with the speeds one can maintain normally on the Autobahn. Revs are good
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:04 PM   #107
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I know Abalinka mentioned an EGR delete earlier in this thread, too...

On the FSI in the R, yes, that can be done.

The TSI accomplishes EGR via valve overlap. I'm no scientist, but I think it's safe to say that's not a good thing for carbon buildup.
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Old 11-04-2013, 11:39 PM   #108
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idiots

clear lake vw only slightly better mind you
West Houston VW sucks... try Archer
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Old 11-07-2013, 10:18 PM   #109
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Unless I read that patent wrong it isn't just RPMs that you need to clear the carbon, you need RPMs and heat. Just cruising on the freeway at 4500 RPMs isn't likely to do it, if you're not adding much fuel and air to the fire the increased combustion frequency probably won't get the big temperature numbers you need.

I have just under 70k miles on my car and it has lost zero performance. It still pulls a happy 30-31 MPG at 70 mph and spins the tires at part throttle in second gear.... and it's stock. I'm guessing it's because I occasionally run off to the mountains and spend hours with my foot on the floor pushing the car to redline for hours at a time.

To put it bluntly.... add a track day to your regular maintenance schedule and you'll probably have no issues.
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Old 11-08-2013, 07:26 AM   #110
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Unless I read that patent wrong it isn't just RPMs that you need to clear the carbon, you need RPMs and heat. Just cruising on the freeway at 4500 RPMs isn't likely to do it, if you're not adding much fuel and air to the fire the increased combustion frequency probably won't get the big temperature numbers you need.

I have just under 70k miles on my car and it has lost zero performance. It still pulls a happy 30-31 MPG at 70 mph and spins the tires at part throttle in second gear.... and it's stock. I'm guessing it's because I occasionally run off to the mountains and spend hours with my foot on the floor pushing the car to redline for hours at a time.

To put it bluntly.... add a track day to your regular maintenance schedule and you'll probably have no issues.
According to my dealer here, they dont see a huge problem in the area where I am. They service many GTi's and my service advisor has 1. 160kph or more on the Autobahn with a warm motor is a good thing according to them

Who knows really-- build up is almost motor specific depending on driving style to begin with.
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Old 11-08-2013, 09:04 PM   #111
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According to my dealer here, they dont see a huge problem in the area where I am. They service many GTi's and my service advisor has 1. 160kph or more on the Autobahn with a warm motor is a good thing according to them

Who knows really-- build up is almost motor specific depending on driving style to begin with.
Color me jealous. I wish I could take a 20-30 minute run down the interstate at full tilt.
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Old 11-08-2013, 10:43 PM   #112
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I drive all the time with low RPM, that's probably bad.
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