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Focus ST vs GTI

MrFancypants

Autocross Champion
I was behind an ST getting onto a freeway. He was in front of me and I basically opened up in 2nd gear and ran through third. I know he was on it because of the black puff of smoke from his exhaust. He didn't pull away, I didn't get closer, we were as dead even as it gets.

Either my stock car is a factory ringer or STs are massively overrated by Ford. I know VW under-rated these to a degree, but it's certainly not under-rated by 50 hp. If just a tune puts my car at about what the ST is rated at the ST would get pulled pretty effortlessly.
 

syonxwf

Go Kart Champion
Just ran across my first unlucky victim this morning, a stock (appearance-wise, other than tint) ST, that decided to come up fast on my tail and egged me on. I took off from the light in the right lane (first person in line), she was in the left lane behind a car. The car behind me trailed so she powered through and got on me. I gave it a little juice and she held to me, so I opened it up and put a couple buses on her...she refused to come up next to me after that. I was going to invite her to the local ST group too, they are all pretty cool guys/gals...:iono:

I actually found out who this person was and they are in the local ST group. Said she was late for work but commented how quick my car was, said she's seen me a couple times when she was in her mustang and will "look for me a little more now and gun for me" :thumbsup:


I was behind an ST getting onto a freeway. He was in front of me and I basically opened up in 2nd gear and ran through third. I know he was on it because of the black puff of smoke from his exhaust. He didn't pull away, I didn't get closer, we were as dead even as it gets.

Either my stock car is a factory ringer or STs are massively overrated by Ford. I know VW under-rated these to a degree, but it's certainly not under-rated by 50 hp. If just a tune puts my car at about what the ST is rated at the ST would get pulled pretty effortlessly.

They are overrated. Ford rates their car at the crank, so while they advertise 250, it actually only sees between 220-235whp. At the same time, VW typically advertises their power to the wheel, and I believe they underrate their car, as we have guys seeing 210whp on a stock car (mk6). Couple that with the fact that the ST weighs 1-200lbs more, and the fact that a good portion of their power isn't always available (overboost only works for a few seconds) and you start to see why they tend to not hold up to scrutiny.

I've mentioned this before, but when I was on stage 2 pre-update, 91 oct so probably around 235whp/285wtq, I ran a stage 3 e30 ST that had dyno'd 280whp/360wtq, 55-110, put 5-6 cars on him. He knew we were racing, he was most definitely trying, I've talked to him multiple times about it after, he had zero excuses. They just don't perform like their numbers suggest.
 

MK6NGT

Ready to race!
RS4? As in Audi? He must have been way out of his power band if you beat him badly. Stage 1 does not have enough power to pull one of those in 3rd gear speeds.



The guy said after the race he was in fourth gear and figured he would beat me bad without having to really downshift into 3rd. He also was kind of a weird guy, man bun wearing euro loose shirt type of dude, he said repeatedly it was the engine out of the R8. I raced him a few times and it was the same result every time. You guys can call BS, lol idc, not trying to win any popularity contests here. I looked up the model years after I got home that night, it was the B7.
 

fast2ghl

Ready to race!
The guy said after the race he was in fourth gear and figured he would beat me bad without having to really downshift into 3rd. He also was kind of a weird guy, man bun wearing euro loose shirt type of dude, he said repeatedly it was the engine out of the R8. I raced him a few times and it was the same result every time. You guys can call BS, lol idc, not trying to win any popularity contests here. I looked up the model years after I got home that night, it was the B7.

Well if it was the B7 RS4 then yes it is the 4.2 V8 from the R8 first gen, so he's not wrong. I could see in forth gear him losing, sure.... but if he was in proper gear, 95 percent sure he'd have left you wanting more.
 

MK6NGT

Ready to race!
Well if it was the B7 RS4 then yes it is the 4.2 V8 from the R8 first gen, so he's not wrong. I could see in forth gear him losing, sure.... but if he was in proper gear, 95 percent sure he'd have left you wanting more.



I agree, would have been nice to see the heads up race though. idc about losing, I'd rather lose a heads up race then win a race that isn't equal. Losing drives the thirst for mods!
 

MrFancypants

Autocross Champion
They are overrated. Ford rates their car at the crank, so while they advertise 250, it actually only sees between 220-235whp. At the same time, VW typically advertises their power to the wheel, and I believe they underrate their car, as we have guys seeing 210whp on a stock car (mk6). Couple that with the fact that the ST weighs 1-200lbs more, and the fact that a good portion of their power isn't always available (overboost only works for a few seconds) and you start to see why they tend to not hold up to scrutiny.

I've mentioned this before, but when I was on stage 2 pre-update, 91 oct so probably around 235whp/285wtq, I ran a stage 3 e30 ST that had dyno'd 280whp/360wtq, 55-110, put 5-6 cars on him. He knew we were racing, he was most definitely trying, I've talked to him multiple times about it after, he had zero excuses. They just don't perform like their numbers suggest.

Man, I don't get it. The ~150 lb weight difference doesn't account for that forward thrust differential. I know the GTI has a gearing advantage...

2nd gear @ 6500 RPMs
GTI (6MT): 59 MPH
FoST: 62 MPH

3rd gear @ 6500 RPMs
GTI (6MT): 84 MPH
FoST: 91 MPH

4th gear @ 6500 RPMs
GTI (6MT): 111 MPH
FoST: 118 MPH

....but that difference in weight and gearing doesn't seem like it should overcome a ~45 hp deficit.

Stratified Tuning's site shows that the numbers he claimed for the ST check out. How sure are you about your numbers? I have to believe that the dyno that produced those numbers for that setup read on the low side.

I know this is a huge simplification, but these two cars have 2.0 liter DOHC engines running K03 turbos, so similarly upgraded cars should yield similar horsepower and acceleration numbers.

After browsing through the ST forums and checking time-slips it does look like these cars are capable running with GTI mod for mod. If I were to bet, it sounds like the ST you ran was making a fair amount less than claimed. Full stage 3 on an E30 tune should have given him an edge. You didn't mention the ambient temps or if the guy had run his car right before he ran you; maybe there was heat soak and the ST's ECU is quick to pull timing/boost when the IATs creep up?
 

GreyGti1990

Ready to race!
Man, I don't get it. The ~150 lb weight difference doesn't account for that forward thrust differential. I know the GTI has a gearing advantage...



2nd gear @ 6500 RPMs

GTI (6MT): 59 MPH

FoST: 62 MPH



3rd gear @ 6500 RPMs

GTI (6MT): 84 MPH

FoST: 91 MPH



4th gear @ 6500 RPMs

GTI (6MT): 111 MPH

FoST: 118 MPH



....but that difference in weight and gearing doesn't seem like it should overcome a ~45 hp deficit.



Stratified Tuning's site shows that the numbers he claimed for the ST check out. How sure are you about your numbers? I have to believe that the dyno that produced those numbers for that setup read on the low side.



I know this is a huge simplification, but these two cars have 2.0 liter DOHC engines running K03 turbos, so similarly upgraded cars should yield similar horsepower and acceleration numbers.



After browsing through the ST forums and checking time-slips it does look like these cars are capable running with GTI mod for mod. If I were to bet, it sounds like the ST you ran was making a fair amount less than claimed. Full stage 3 on an E30 tune should have given him an edge. You didn't mention the ambient temps or if the guy had run his car right before he ran you; maybe there was heat soak and the ST's ECU is quick to pull timing/boost when the IATs creep up?



Nah man, ST'a just need more power than GTi's to be just as fast; plain and simple. Last summer I ran an ST that was stage 1 when I was stage 1. I dusted him. Later that same summer he went full bolt (I'm pretty sure) complete with intercooler and no-lift shift with a freak tune (I believe) and I still edged him out with my same mods. Last I checked he was going big turbo but I haven't heard back from him. ST's are just slower all around
 

MrFancypants

Autocross Champion
Yeah it just seems odd. There's just so much that's similar between these two cars that people shouldn't be walking them so easily. It'd be great if there were an explanation out there.
 

syonxwf

Go Kart Champion
Man, I don't get it. The ~150 lb weight difference doesn't account for that forward thrust differential. I know the GTI has a gearing advantage...

2nd gear @ 6500 RPMs
GTI (6MT): 59 MPH
FoST: 62 MPH

3rd gear @ 6500 RPMs
GTI (6MT): 84 MPH
FoST: 91 MPH

4th gear @ 6500 RPMs
GTI (6MT): 111 MPH
FoST: 118 MPH

....but that difference in weight and gearing doesn't seem like it should overcome a ~45 hp deficit.

Stratified Tuning's site shows that the numbers he claimed for the ST check out. How sure are you about your numbers? I have to believe that the dyno that produced those numbers for that setup read on the low side.

I know this is a huge simplification, but these two cars have 2.0 liter DOHC engines running K03 turbos, so similarly upgraded cars should yield similar horsepower and acceleration numbers.

After browsing through the ST forums and checking time-slips it does look like these cars are capable running with GTI mod for mod. If I were to bet, it sounds like the ST you ran was making a fair amount less than claimed. Full stage 3 on an E30 tune should have given him an edge. You didn't mention the ambient temps or if the guy had run his car right before he ran you; maybe there was heat soak and the ST's ECU is quick to pull timing/boost when the IATs creep up?

Ambient temps were low, like mid 50's, they were in a group cruising together going to a camp out before an airport dragstrip track day which was the next day. He had some extra fuel in the back in a gas can, and had 1 passenger, whereas I had none. I told him that didn't help him, but he refused to believe it as a viable excuse. I know it made some difference, but it still wasn't more than 200lbs, and that's not enough to make up for the hp difference either, let alone one that let me dive ahead by so much. He did hold on to me in 3rd gear pretty well (iirc), and it was when I shifted to 4th that I started really pulling away.

I don't know what it is, but there is something funky with those cars and they just aren't getting all that power to the ground.

Nah man, ST'a just need more power than GTi's to be just as fast; plain and simple. Last summer I ran an ST that was stage 1 when I was stage 1. I dusted him. Later that same summer he went full bolt (I'm pretty sure) complete with intercooler and no-lift shift with a freak tune (I believe) and I still edged him out with my same mods. Last I checked he was going big turbo but I haven't heard back from him. ST's are just slower all around

Even big turbo is really not that fast, not to mention I've seen tons of local guys go BT, only to blow their motor within relatively short fashion...I wanna say the fastest I've seen a BT ST go, last I checked (which I'll admit was a while ago) was something in the 12's around 119mph. I think the WR K04 car is in the low 120's, and K04 is definitely not on the same level power-wise as their BT, not even close.

Yeah it just seems odd. There's just so much that's similar between these two cars that people shouldn't be walking them so easily. It'd be great if there were an explanation out there.

They are very similar, and should be highly competitive, but just...aren't...wish I knew what it was.
I don't believe it's only the ST though, the RS I feel fits into the same category. The RS has a 60hp advantage over the STI and the Golf R, yet the RS is 13.4 @ 105, the STI is 13.4 @ 104, the Golf R is 13.6 @ 105...that's essentially identical. Yes, the Golf R weighs 200lbs less, but the STI is only 3lbs less, but even 200lbs does not negate a 60hp advantage. Their hot hatches just have some weird fucking voodoo shit happening that keeps them from living to their potential.
 
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