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It's Decided. 2.5 Turbo. Winter 2019
- Thread starter OrangeSpy
- Start date
OrangeSpy
Ready to race!
Thanks for all the info!!! I didnt know about the other Manifolds so that should help out. I contacted JDL and they want $$$$ for the manifold (it looks like it is worth the money but it's out of my price range) Also, what can you tell me about compression ratios? fro. what I know the 2.5 has a 10:1 and the spacer would make it 8:1. What does this mean?
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OrangeSpy
Ready to race!
You're a legend!
FlowMK6
Ready to race!
Studying and working harder than ever ^^ Now studying C++ and Assembly on my free time. I started getting more interested in memory management.
I stopped putting money on the golf, I do not buy performance parts anymore, I just do the regular maintenance and no issues with 02Q swap
I'm saving to get an Audi Quattro and if possible to get a 5 cylinders <3, like an old Audi S4
I would have loved to put the golf turbo and AWD, put the cost are just too high, I could get a mint Audi URS4 Quattro for this price.Having fun at school, rebuilding a engine from A to Z, engines are so interesting, there is also a 07K from a Jetta that I wish I could work on soon
And pretty soon we start with the ECU tuning
Yea JDL is pricey, but worth it if you can afford it
As for the compression ratio, it's a ratio that tells how many times the volume of the combustion chamber can fit in the volume of the cylinder + the volume of the combustion chamber.
For example, our engine is a 2.5L which stands for 2500cc, that would be the total volume of every cylinders togheter. Actually the exact volume is 2,480cc so 496cc per cylinder.
The cylinder is the part of the block and on top of the block, we have the cylinder head. The part of the cylinder head where valves open and where the spark ignite is called the combustion chamber.
Let's say the combustion chamber have a volume of 58cc, the total volume of air that could fit in, would be 554cc or 554ml (496cc + 58cc). The piston is actually at the bottom dead center, when it's time for the compression, the piston will be at the top of his stroke, the left space is the combustion chamber. So before compressing the air, we had 554cc of air and let's say that air weight 20mg, when we compress the air, the volume of air is now 58cc and the air still weight 20mg.
This means the radio would be 554cc for 58cc, in other words, 554:58, so 9.5:1. I forgot to mention, that our engine have a compression ratio of 9.5:1 not 10:1, the Audi 5 cylinders have a ratio of 10:1.
Now let's say we added a head spacer, the volume of the cylinder haven't changed, but now the combustion chamber is bigger. Let's say our combustion chamber now have a volume of 70cc instead of 58cc. This means the total volume of air would be 566cc (496 + 70). We will compress the air, the ratio would be 566:70, so 8:1. The head spacer just make the combustion chamber bigger to reduce the compression, it's only a solution to avoid expensive forged pistons and rods.
Having a higher compression ratio is better for efficiency since you can add less fuel to the air-fuel mix and get more mechanical energy from the detonation since the air-fuel mix is more compressed. Unfortunately, higher compression means higher octane level required since the gasoline ignite with compression and heat, the octane level represent its resistance from ignition against compression. Low-octane level with high compression ratio will lead to knock, when the mix detonate before the spark which can cause dammage, it's more true for ported injection where gasoline is added to the air throught the intake port when on a direction injection, the air will be compressed without gasoline and the gasoline is added at the last moment.
I know I'm going off topic, but it's fun to give some knowledge. On diesel engine, the compression ratio is higher because when compressing molecules, it makes them hotter, it's become hotter because the energy made by the work of piston when compressing air is transfered to the molecules that are contained into the cylinder, this make the molecules stacking energy and moving faster and it becomes hotter. Since the autoignition point of the diesel is 256 degrees celcius it ignite by himself, so no need for spark. But due to high compression, the internals needs to be more solid and this increase the weight of internal and it decrease the max engine speed as the weight increase... That's why diesel are more efficient since the combustion is better as compression increase, turbocharging is pretty usefull in that case, but since the revolution is lower and the HP is based on how fast the torque can be delivered (work), diesel cars have low hp rating but high torque at low-end.
If you any questions, feel free to ask. And if someone is looking for wiring diagram or other stuffs, I have access to ProDemand and AllData
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OrangeSpy
Ready to race!
Studying and working harder than ever ^^ Now studying C++ and Assembly on my free time. I started getting more interested in memory management.
I stopped putting money on the golf, I do not buy performance parts anymore, I just do the regular maintenance and no issues with 02Q swap
I'm saving to get an Audi Quattro and if possible to get a 5 cylinders <3, like an old Audi S4
Having fun at school, rebuilding a engine from A to Z, engines are so interesting, there is also a 07K from a Jetta that I wish I could work on soon
And pretty soon we start with the ECU tuning
Yea JDL is pricey, but worth it if you can afford it
As for the compression ratio, it's a ratio that tells how many times the volume of the combustion chamber can fit in the volume of the cylinder + the volume of the combustion chamber.
For example, our engine is a 2.5L which stands for 2500cc, that would be the total volume of every cylinders togheter. Actually the exact volume is 2,480cc so 496cc per cylinder.
The cylinder is the part of the block and on top of the block, we have the cylinder head. The part of the cylinder head where valves open and where the spark ignite is called the combustion chamber.
Let's say the combustion chamber have a volume of 58cc, the total volume of air that could fit in, would be 554cc or 554ml (496cc + 58cc). The piston is actually at the bottom dead center, when it's time for the compression, the piston will be at the top of his stroke, the left space is the combustion chamber. So before compressing the air, we had 554cc of air and let's say that air weight 20mg, when we compress the air, the volume of air is now 58cc and the air still weight 20mg.
This means the radio would be 554cc for 58cc, in other words, 554:58, so 9.5:1. I forgot to mention, that our engine have a compression ratio of 9.5:1 not 10:1, the Audi 5 cylinders have a ratio of 10:1.
Now let's say we added a head spacer, the volume of the cylinder haven't changed, but now the combustion chamber is bigger. Let's say our combustion chamber now have a volume of 70cc instead of 58cc. This means the total volume of air would be 566cc (496 + 70). We will compress the air, the ratio would be 566:70, so 8:1. The head spacer just make the combustion chamber bigger to reduce the compression, it's only a solution to avoid expensive forged pistons and rods.
Having a higher compression ratio is better for efficiency since you can add less fuel to the air-fuel mix and get more mechanical energy from the detonation since the air-fuel mix is more compressed. Unfortunately, higher compression means higher octane level required since the gasoline ignite with compression and heat, the octane level represent its resistance from ignition against compression. Low-octane level with high compression ratio will lead to knock, when the mix detonate before the spark which can cause dammage, it's more true for ported injection where gasoline is added to the air throught the intake port when on a direction injection, the air will be compressed without gasoline and the gasoline is added at the last moment.
I know I'm going off topic, but it's fun to give some knowledge. On diesel engine, the compression ratio is higher because when compressing molecules, it makes them hotter, it's become hotter because the energy made by the work of piston when compressing air is transfered to the molecules that are contained into the cylinder, this make the molecules stacking energy and moving faster and it becomes hotter. Since the autoignition point of the diesel is 256 degrees celcius it ignite by himself, so no need for spark. But due to high compression, the internals needs to be more solid and this increase the weight of internal and it decrease the max engine speed as the weight increase... That's why diesel are more efficient since the combustion is better as compression increase, turbocharging is pretty usefull in that case, but since the revolution is lower and the HP is based on how fast the torque can be delivered (work), diesel cars have low hp rating but high torque at low-end.
If you any questions, feel free to ask. And if someone is looking for wiring diagram or other stuffs, I have access to ProDemand and AllData
Thanks for the detail! Makes perfect sense! I assumed the spacer added space to the combustion chamber thus lowering how much gas is compressed but wasn't 100% and had no idea what the numbers meant.
You mentioned SPAturbo, I came across these guys once before but assumed there 2.5 manifold was for an Audi, will this fit the golf?
You also.mention wiring diagrams, you wouldn't happen to have one for the passenger door of a 2012 Comfortline Golf? My door lock and mirror aren't working and I can't seem to find the problem
Flow, I'm glad you're doing well and most of all learning and loving it. You have come a long way, if I can be of more help let me know.Studying and working harder than ever ^^ Now studying C++ and Assembly on my free time. I started getting more interested in memory management.
I stopped putting money on the golf, I do not buy performance parts anymore, I just do the regular maintenance and no issues with 02Q swap
I'm saving to get an Audi Quattro and if possible to get a 5 cylinders <3, like an old Audi S4
Having fun at school, rebuilding a engine from A to Z, engines are so interesting, there is also a 07K from a Jetta that I wish I could work on soon
And pretty soon we start with the ECU tuning
Yea JDL is pricey, but worth it if you can afford it
Have you read your ECU yet? MED17 is a bit of a pain in the ass. For ECU play I've stalled without a dyno.
I have used my tools to recover a few ECUs for shops, getting referrals from BMW guys who f*k up when using an Android phone app to flash their cars. Lol Could do more but in SC.
EDIT: You you go pro don't rely on VW/Audi the mentality is packaged solution like COBB, which is very limiting. I'm liking Ford ST/RS, that stuff is race car quality not cafe racer.
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JDL looks good but those long pipes in theory not efficient; when I was in Daytona in January, I spoke to a Ford Eco Boost Support Engineer, he says in practice when engineering turbo systems they try to locate the turbo as close to the intake valves, every inch of extra flow, the exhaust looses kinetic as well as thermal energy. There is a lot more than we know, so don't discount anything. In F1 they would rather use a shaft to relocate the compressor than lengthen the exhaust runners.
I'm not an expert so I'll stop there!
I'm not an expert so I'll stop there!
FlowMK6
Ready to race!
I have seen someone local using the SPATurbo manifold without issues. SPATurbo says FSI engine, but I have read this :
For the wiring diagram, I can get this tomorrow in pdf format, please note it's the original wiring diagram in german, so colors are in german and it does use the track style instead of the regular style, IMO the track style is better and easier to work with.
I still haven't played with my car yet, I only have the Kess... But my friend want to tune his MR2 Turbo in the spring / summer. The MR2 use a chip in ROM(Read-only memory), so we can't edit the map, we will be using a AEM EMS standalone ECU or maybe a MegaSquirt since it's cheaper.
It's totally true that longer the pipe is, the more you loose kinetic energy and thermal energy. But there are so much factors to consider. It's important to understand that the exhaust stroke doesn't happens at the same time between cylinders (a bit of overlap with the 5 cylinders).
Let's compare the SPATurbo manifold (log style) with the JDL (tubular style). With the SPATurbo, the exhaust route / path is shorter than the JDL due to the short runner. But with the JDL design, the exhaust pulse from each cylinder is more isolated / preserved due to the individual pipes leading to a better flowing / "vacuum effect". Here is a video that that show what I'm trying to explain:
The JDL manifold is exclusively tuned for our cars, there is some flow dynamics work there.
Then, the SPATurbo which is a cast manifold might be more durable and heat less that a tubular style, but the JDL is made of good materials with thermal coating.
The JDL is a top mount style manifold when the SPATurbo use bottom mount style. Again both styles have advantages and disavantages.
The JDL allow the use of a bigger turbo and the oil drain is better on the JDL, but needs some custom downpipe which are harder to make / find. It might heat the hood without thermal insulation.
The SPATurbo will heat less and the downpipe fitting is easier, it doesn't look as good as the top mount. The turbo size is limited due to the limited clearance. Then, the gravity point is better with a bottom mount turbo than a top mount.
In term of price, top mount will cost more due to extra piping and material needed for the extra heat.
From what I read, the JDL would be the turbo manifold with the best flowing. The BlueWater Performance manifold is good too, cheaper than the JDL and better than the SPATurbo.
Then if you want to reduce piping to avoid the lost of kinetic and thermal energy, you could use meth/water injection instead of an intercooler. But knowing you are from Canada, I don't know if that kind of setup run well in winter
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OrangeSpy
Ready to race!
I have seen someone local using the SPATurbo manifold without issues. SPATurbo says FSI engine, but I have read this :
For the wiring diagram, I can get this tomorrow in pdf format, please note it's the original wiring diagram in german, so colors are in german and it does use the track style instead of the regular style, IMO the track style is better and easier to work with.
I still haven't played with my car yet, I only have the Kess... But my friend want to tune his MR2 Turbo in the spring / summer. The MR2 use a chip in ROM(Read-only memory), so we can't edit the map, we will be using a AEM EMS standalone ECU or maybe a MegaSquirt since it's cheaper.
It's totally true that longer the pipe is, the more you loose kinetic energy and thermal energy. But there are so much factors to consider. It's important to understand that the exhaust stroke doesn't happens at the same time between cylinders (a bit of overlap with the 5 cylinders).
Let's compare the SPATurbo manifold (log style) with the JDL (tubular style). With the SPATurbo, the exhaust route / path is shorter than the JDL due to the short runner. But with the JDL design, the exhaust pulse from each cylinder is more isolated / preserved due to the individual pipes leading to a better flowing / "vacuum effect". Here is a video that that show what I'm trying to explain:
The JDL manifold is exclusively tuned for our cars, there is some flow dynamics work there.
Then, the SPATurbo which is a cast manifold might be more durable and heat less that a tubular style, but the JDL is made of good materials with thermal coating.
The JDL is a top mount style manifold when the SPATurbo use bottom mount style. Again both styles have advantages and disavantages.
The JDL allow the use of a bigger turbo and the oil drain is better on the JDL, but needs some custom downpipe which are harder to make / find. It might heat the hood without thermal insulation.
The SPATurbo will heat less and the downpipe fitting is easier, it doesn't look as good as the top mount. The turbo size is limited due to the limited clearance. Then, the gravity point is better with a bottom mount turbo than a top mount.
In term of price, top mount will cost more due to extra piping and material needed for the extra heat.
From what I read, the JDL would be the turbo manifold with the best flowing. The BlueWater Performance manifold is good too, cheaper than the JDL and better than the SPATurbo.
Then if you want to reduce piping to avoid the lost of kinetic and thermal energy, you could use meth/water injection instead of an intercooler. But knowing you are from Canada, I don't know if that kind of setup run well in winter
I see blue water also sells 5976e and 5931e turbos, what do you think of these? they came up with the search for a 2.5 mk5
edit: They also have the option for a wastegate hole on the turbo it's self. Is this the same as a waste gate hole on a manifold?
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FlowMK6
Ready to race!
Wastegate hole on manifold ? What they meant when you can choose a turbine housing with a Wastegate hole, is that you have an internal wastegate. I would prefer an external wastegate, easier to adjust,a bit less restrictive and louder
Between the 5976 and the 5931, I would choose the 5976.
The first two number is the compressor wheel size in mm, the second number is the turbine wheel size. In general, the flow is better when the compressor and the turbine wheel have the same size, that's why you often see pt5858, pt6262, etc...
IMO, I would look for a 5858 minimum, if the turbo is too small, the maximum CFM output (cubic feet per minute) would be too low for our 5 cylinders, that why a K04 wouldn't be that good on our cars.
The maximum cfm output increase as the compressor wheel size increase. The spool time also increase as the compressor size increase, but you can make the spool time shorter by removing restriction. The max turbo boost increase when the turbo cfm output is greater than the engine cfm.
Also keep in mind, a low A/R ratio will spool quicker, but generate less boost. A high A/R will generate a lot of boost in the top-end but will take time to spool.
OrangeSpy
Ready to race!
Wastegate hole on manifold ? What they meant when you can choose a turbine housing with a Wastegate hole, is that you have an internal wastegate. I would prefer an external wastegate, easier to adjust,a bit less restrictive and louder
Between the 5976 and the 5931, I would choose the 5976.
The first two number is the compressor wheel size in mm, the second number is the turbine wheel size. In general, the flow is better when the compressor and the turbine wheel have the same size, that's why you often see pt5858, pt6262, etc...
IMO, I would look for a 5858 minimum, if the turbo is too small, the maximum CFM output (cubic feet per minute) would be too low for our 5 cylinders, that why a K04 wouldn't be that good on our cars.
The maximum cfm output increase as the compressor wheel size increase. The spool time also increase as the compressor size increase, but you can make the spool time shorter by removing restriction. The max turbo boost increase when the turbo cfm output is greater than the engine cfm.
Also keep in mind, a low A/R ratio will spool quicker, but generate less boost. A high A/R will generate a lot of boost in the top-end but will take time to spool.
You are a turbo guru!
trying to balance budget and performance is proving to be difficult haha. In you're opinion would you say a front mount intercooler would be better then a side mount? I'm trying to keep the cars external as stock as I can to hide what's truly under the hood. Most side mounts I've found can't handle much more then 200hp and the ones that can are $$$. Also, do you know where I can tap into for an oil feed?
And no worries about the German in the wiring diagram, Google can help me out
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Found the SPA Turbo info, looks very promising.
http://www.designengineering.com/press/volkswagen-25l-turbo-exhaust-manifold
http://www.designengineering.com/press/volkswagen-25l-turbo-exhaust-manifold
FlowMK6
Ready to race!
Here is the wiring diagram, there are not the original, but should do the trick :
https://1drv.ms/b/s!ArY8ezVu0AA1gbJSb4l7c6SGCmbnsg
There are 2 versions, 2-door and 4-door, have fun !
As for the intercooler, I would take a FMIC, cheaper, better performance and looks good
OrangeSpy
Ready to race!
This is great! They're currently out of stock but told me they should have them in the next week or so, I think this will be the first thing I buy as it seems to be hard to get
OrangeSpy
Ready to race!
Here is the wiring diagram, there are not the original, but should do the trick :
https://1drv.ms/b/s!ArY8ezVu0AA1gbJSb4l7c6SGCmbnsg
There are 2 versions, 2-door and 4-door, have fun !
As for the intercooler, I would take a FMIC, cheaper, better performance and looks good
Thanks a million!