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The dangers of increasing GTI turbo-boost

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harddrivin1le1

Ready to race!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_petrol_engines#2.0_TFSI_125-210kW

"The 169 kW (227 HP) and higher versions have stronger pistons and gudgeon pins, new rings, reinforced connecting rods, new bearings, reinforced cylinder block at the main bearing pedestals and cap, new lightweight aluminium-silicon alloy cylinder head...NOT shared with the lower output variants."

For example, the 2011 Audi TTS uses a 2.0T engine, which is rated at 265 HP.

That engine therefore includes a host of internal strength enhancing upgrades (including a different cylinder block) that the GTIs lack.

Audi does that in order to increase engine life and reliability under the higher boost pressures (17.4 PSIG) that are associated with that engine.

VW/Audi engineers clearly feel that something on the order of 225 HP is about the maximum limit for the GTI's engine when long term reliability is considered.

Boosting your GTI to anything much beyond that level will result in significantly reduced engine life and a significantly higher likelihood of engine failure (in the form of bent bent rods, burnt bearings, etc.)

Even something as "mild" as an APR Stage 1 is going to adversely impact engine life and reliability over time. Anyone who does a Stage 2 or 3 level mod and drives the car hard will likely be looking at some very real (and very expensive) problems by the 50,000 mile mark.

Our engines are designed with the stock power levels (220 HP or so) in mind and apparently don't have a whole lot of room to spare.

More information:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q2/2010_audi_tts-short_take_road_test

"The engine is an upgraded version of the well-traveled VW/Audi turbocharged, intercooled, and direct-injected 2.0-liter four. In basic TT tune, fed by an IHI turbo delivering 13.1 psi of max boost, it generates 200 horsepower and 207 pound-feet of torque. Enhanced by a beefier block, an aluminum-silicon alloy head, and a heftier crank —and nourished by a bigger BorgWarner turbo blowing 17.4 psi max—this engine churns out 265 horsepower and 258 pound-feet from 2500 to 5000 rpm. "
 
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victorM

Passed Driver's Ed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_petrol_engines#2.0_TFSI_125-210kW

"The 169 kW (227 HP) and higher versions have stronger pistons and gudgeon pins, new rings, reinforced connecting rods, new bearings, reinforced cylinder block at the main bearing pedestals and cap, new lightweight aluminium-silicon alloy cylinder head...NOT shared with the lower output variants."

For example, the 2011 Audi TTS uses a 2.0T engine, which is rated at 265 HP.

That engine therefore includes a host of internal strength enhancing upgrades (including a different cylinder block) that the GTIs lack.

Audi does that in order to increase engine life and reliability under the higher boost pressures (17.4 PSIG) that are associated with that engine.

VW/Audi engineers clearly feel that something on the order of 225 HP is about the maximum limit for the GTI's engine when long term reliability is considered.

Boosting your GTI to anything much beyond that level will result in significantly reduced engine life and a significantly higher likelihood of engine failure (in the form of bent bent rods, burnt bearings, etc.)

Even something as "mild" as an APR Stage 1 is going to adversely impact engine life and reliability over time. Anyone who does a Stage 2 or 3 level mod and drives the car hard will likely be looking at some very real (and very expensive) problems by the 50,000 mile mark.

Our engines are designed with the stock power levels (220 HP or so) in mind and apparently don't have a whole lot of room to spare.

More information:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q2/2010_audi_tts-short_take_road_test

"The engine is an upgraded version of the well-traveled VW/Audi turbocharged, intercooled, and direct-injected 2.0-liter four. In basic TT tune, fed by an IHI turbo delivering 13.1 psi of max boost, it generates 200 horsepower and 207 pound-feet of torque. Enhanced by a beefier block, an aluminum-silicon alloy head, and a heftier crank —and nourished by a bigger BorgWarner turbo blowing 17.4 psi max—this engine churns out 265 horsepower and 258 pound-feet from 2500 to 5000 rpm. "

good post, thanks
 

jaydubz

FIA World Rally Car Newbie
You know this does bring some additional thought into mind. If APR has the ability to give the equivalent of about 230 hp with a flash then they should have the ability to maybe introduce a lite tune. Some of you may find it pointless, but a tune that maybe adds 15 extra hp and the increased throttle response that the reflash has been known to give.

It would be interesting to see what APR or everyone thinks about this? A lite tune would come in at a lower price but would allow the customer to upgrade to stage 1 and beyond if necessary.
 

shahabdin

Ready to race!
Not surprised. That also pretty much supports in their favour (VW group's) the sudden hike in value of those models. Start changing all the piston heads, rings, silicone coats etc... and the price will rocket high! So does this mean all those APRd dudes out there are running their engine pistons at over their permissible levels?
 

harddrivin1le1

Ready to race!
So does this mean all those APRd dudes out there are running their engine pistons at over their permissible levels?

That's absolutely what it means.

I'd be surprised if the engine held together much beyond the 50K mile mark on an APR Stage 2 or 3 car that is routinely driven with some vigor.

The VW/Audi group wouldn't be specifying all of those expensive parts for the higher output version of their 2.0 T engines unless those parts were absolutely necessary.
 

BigRobSA

Ready to race!
You've got to pay to play.

If/when shit breaks inside, I'm opening it up (like I've done to my previous vehicles) and boring/stroking/forging all of it. Then, BIIIIG turbo.

Since the block is iron, THAT isn't the weak point...all of the "soft" internals are.
 

harddrivin1le1

Ready to race!
Since the block is iron, THAT isn't the weak point...all of the "soft" internals are.

The EA888's block is weak, which is the reason that the higher output Audi 2.0 T engines use the old EA113 block.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_petrol_engines

In its present form, the EA888's lower end (block, rods, pistons, bearings, wrist pins, pistons, etc.) are weak for a turbocharged engine.

People who are significantly increasing their engine's output by increased boost levels are destroying their engines.

Pushing an EA888 engine to anything near the 300 HP level is going to result in a very short engine life and a very sad (and expensive) ending.

So if you want to really go fast, buy a car with an engine that's designed to do so.
 
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P

plac

Guest
I'd be surprised if the engine held together much beyond the 50K mile mark on an APR Stage 2 or 3 car that is routinely driven with some vigor.

ROFL!! just like all the 100k mile MK5s that blew up at 50k miles.. oh wait, they didnt.. BIG difference between stage 2 and stage 3..
 

harddrivin1le1

Ready to race!
ROFL!! just like all the 100k mile MK5s that blew up at 50k miles.. oh wait, they didnt.. BIG difference between stage 2 and stage 3..

Did those MK5s use the EA888 engine or did it use the older (and stronger) EA113 engine? (Answer, they used the EA113 engines, since the EA888 engines didn't make their way into MKV GTIs until late 2008.)

It's quite clear that VW/Audi engineers don't specify the EA888 engine for high output applications.

It's also quite clear that ALL of their high performance (227 HP and up) 2.0 T engines use fortified versions of the EA113 engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_petrol_engines

I'm assuming that VW/Audi engineers know more about their engines than you do, so I'll stand behind their opinion, as demonstrated by their chosen applications.
 
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BigRobSA

Ready to race!
Cool. Then a new block might be in order. Oh well, it's only money, you can't take it with you.
 
P

plac

Guest
Did those MK5s use the EA888 engine or did it use the older (and stronger) EA113 engine? (Answer, they used the EA113 engines, since the EA888 engines didn't make their way into MKV GTIs until late 2008.)

It's quite clear that VW/Audi engineers don't specify the EA888 engine for high output applications.

It's also quite clear that ALL of their high performance (227 HP and up) 2.0 T engines use fortified versions of the EA113 engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_petrol_engines

I'm assuming that VW/Audi engineers know more about their engines than you do, so I'll stand behind their opinion, as demonstrated by their chosen applications.

Enjoy not chipping your car and staying safe.
 

harddrivin1le1

Ready to race!
So? Don't chip your car.

Or I can chip it and ruin the engine. I think I'll skip the chip.

Even APR's Stage 1 tune's output puts the EA888's (MK6 GTI engine) output at 254 HP.

http://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_upgrade_20tsi_trans.html

VW/Audi engineers specify the older and stronger EA113 engine block with a host of internal upgrades for factory power levels starting at 227 HP.

So VW/Audi engineers are essentially telling us that an APR stage 1 tune puts an otherwise stock EA888 engine over the edge in terms of longevity and reliability.

See, I don't care about this because I bought the GTI for what it is.

I'd have bought something else is I wanted something faster. At this point in my life I don't. I've owned MUCH faster cars in the past and that was fine then.
 
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jaydubz

FIA World Rally Car Newbie
I am sure there is a thresold rating on all internal parts, APR is probably pushing well within the threshold. I would assume the only weakness of a pressurized engine would be the check valves and easily replaceble parts. I am sure APR is not pushing the limits of the engine.
 
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