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Old 04-28-2017, 12:01 AM   #43
Short Bus
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Originally Posted by red_stapler View Post
Thanks, that was much more eloquent than my attempts at explaining earlier in the thread.
Yeah, and moving hot air away from the turbo is something, but the turbo probably isn't the best heat exchanger. So I think a better approach is to focus on airflow through the actual heat exchangers.

That said I'm not going to claim to know that to be an absolute fact without taking collecting some data, but most information you can find out there regarding how air flows around a car in motion suggests that you want that portion of the hood to remain sealed unless you have a very specific reason to open it (like a cowl induction intake).

I also have to wonder what removing that strip is doing for your interior vents. If you're trying to use the heater core to shed a bit more heat removing the strip might be robbing you of fresh air to do that with.

I guess another way to test this is before and after logs of the coolant and oil temps. Assuming a four run day trying to get the two in the mid day window to minimize ambient temperature deviation would be interesting to see.

So what aspect of a tune is causing the heat? Is it simply higher turbine speeds creating more heat being passed to the oil and coolant? Higher IATs? More fuel burned in the combustion chamber? All of the above?
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Old 04-28-2017, 12:27 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Short Bus View Post
Yeah, and moving hot air away from the turbo is something, but the turbo probably isn't the best heat exchanger. So I think a better approach is to focus on airflow through the actual heat exchangers.



That said I'm not going to claim to know that to be an absolute fact without taking collecting some data, but most information you can find out there regarding how air flows around a car in motion suggests that you want that portion of the hood to remain sealed unless you have a very specific reason to open it (like a cowl induction intake).



I also have to wonder what removing that strip is doing for your interior vents. If you're trying to use the heater core to shed a bit more heat removing the strip might be robbing you of fresh air to do that with.



I guess another way to test this is before and after logs of the coolant and oil temps. Assuming a four run day trying to get the two in the mid day window to minimize ambient temperature deviation would be interesting to see.



So what aspect of a tune is causing the heat? Is it simply higher turbine speeds creating more heat being passed to the oil and coolant? Higher IATs? More fuel burned in the combustion chamber? All of the above?


For the K04 it's a turbo operating way out of its efficiency range. High boost + low efficiency = lots of heat.
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Old 04-28-2017, 01:18 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Cadubya View Post
For the K04 it's a turbo operating way out of its efficiency range. High boost + low efficiency = lots of heat.
So basically, ask your tuner to tune for peak efficiency according to the compressor map?


Regarding the weather strip, it looks like Modshack performed some tests...

http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39763

He sums it up by saying that it will reduce engine bay temps, bit not necessarily engine temps. So this doesn't look helpful, but maybe not harmful either.
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Old 07-14-2017, 05:39 PM   #46
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I too am APR K04 and track very hard on road courses. If its warmer than 70*F outside, temps will get to 240+ very quickly, usually meaning I have to back off, and hopes for good times that day go down.

I have heard of others running a 70/30 mix of dist. water and coolant, but the owners manual states you should not run less than 60/40 dist. water and coolant. I was going to do a full coolant flush (to remove the possibility theres air in the thermostat as the radiator has been removed a few times now) and swap to that, as well as add water wetter.

Will report with findings
I have the exact same setup with the exact same problem - my Mk6 GTI w/K04 gets to 240+ very quickly on track, even on very cool mornings (albeit, I live in AZ). I've got an an auxiliary oil cooler installed inside the engine bay with its own fan, which makes almost no difference for coolant temps on track - go figure. Wish our US GTIs came with oil temp sensors, so I knew if it was helping.... anyway, from some consulting with a few "experts", including Ron Davis, who happens to be a friend of mine, I've got three routes I'm considering at this point to solve this:

1) upgraded main radiator **
2) finding a way to install auxiliary rads (like on the Golf R)
3) divorcing the coolant system from the oil system somehow, to stop the oil temps from affecting the coolant. Tryolsport recommended this when I talked with them, but didn't have a solution available anymore.
** My other issue is my GTI happens to be a CBFA engine, so upgrading the radiator guarantees a CEL, and nobody I've talked to believes they can work around it, besides Ron Davis, who is the most expensive.

Ron Davis also recommended ensuring I was getting optimal airflow to the radiator, including possibly damming air up into the rad, and to look for possible areas of low pressure to create vents to increase airflow. I don't know how feasible the former would be on a Mk6 though.

Anyway, just wondered if you'd had any luck since you last posted, including your change in mixture, water wetter ,etc... Also, if anyone with a Mk6 is interested in going in with me to have Ron Davis make a few world-class aftermarket rads for us at a reduced cost, I'd definitely consider that heavily...
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:18 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidfromphoenix View Post
I have the exact same setup with the exact same problem - my Mk6 GTI w/K04 gets to 240+ very quickly on track, even on very cool mornings (albeit, I live in AZ). I've got an an auxiliary oil cooler installed inside the engine bay with its own fan, which makes almost no difference for coolant temps on track - go figure. Wish our US GTIs came with oil temp sensors, so I knew if it was helping.... anyway, from some consulting with a few "experts", including Ron Davis, who happens to be a friend of mine, I've got three routes I'm considering at this point to solve this:

1) upgraded main radiator **
2) finding a way to install auxiliary rads (like on the Golf R)
3) divorcing the coolant system from the oil system somehow, to stop the oil temps from affecting the coolant. Tryolsport recommended this when I talked with them, but didn't have a solution available anymore.
** My other issue is my GTI happens to be a CBFA engine, so upgrading the radiator guarantees a CEL, and nobody I've talked to believes they can work around it, besides Ron Davis, who is the most expensive.

Ron Davis also recommended ensuring I was getting optimal airflow to the radiator, including possibly damming air up into the rad, and to look for possible areas of low pressure to create vents to increase airflow. I don't know how feasible the former would be on a Mk6 though.

Anyway, just wondered if you'd had any luck since you last posted, including your change in mixture, water wetter ,etc... Also, if anyone with a Mk6 is interested in going in with me to have Ron Davis make a few world-class aftermarket rads for us at a reduced cost, I'd definitely consider that heavily...
What are you doing currently to provide increased cooling? Which intercooler are you running? What water/coolant ratio are you running? Which radiator are you running? Do you have any aux DSG cooling system?
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Old 08-15-2017, 09:46 AM   #48
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If you have cooling problems with the OE Rad why not run one of these, increase in size and volume would pay dividends, no?
http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2087539
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Old 08-15-2017, 10:08 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by MLue1 View Post
If you have cooling problems with the OE Rad why not run one of these, increase in size and volume would pay dividends, no?
http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2087539
I have one, still have cooling issues when tracking. Next plan is removing the fmic, swapping to a sandwich IC and running an oil cooler
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Old 08-26-2017, 02:14 PM   #50
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Because I always have to understand "but why????" I did some searching and came across this explanation...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine...ustion_engines

Quote:
Modern gasoline engines have a maximum thermal efficiency of about 25% to 50% when used to power a car. In other words, even when the engine is operating at its point of maximum thermal efficiency, of the total heat energy released by the gasoline consumed, about 50-75% is rejected as heat without being turned into useful work, i.e. turning the crankshaft. Approximately half of this rejected heat is carried away by the exhaust gases, and half passes through the cylinder walls or cylinder head into the engine cooling system, and is passed to the atmosphere via the cooling system radiator. Some of the work generated is also lost as friction, noise, air turbulence, and work used to turn engine equipment and appliances such as water and oil pumps and the electrical generator, leaving only about 25-50% of the energy released by the fuel consumed available to move the vehicle.
So the answer to why this is happening on K04 cars is..... more fuel means more heat, it's as simple as that.

If you have a K04 and you're overheating your options are:

1. improve the car's ability to remove heat via coolant or oil (better radiator, oil cooler)
2. burn less fuel (less boost)

I know some of you are thinking yeah, DUH. But I'm sharing anyway to emphasize the point that maybe if you're going to do track events in these cars you shouldn't run the high output tunes that are created without regard for the cooling system's ability to deal with the heat generated from 15+ minutes with your foot on the floor.
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Old 08-26-2017, 02:30 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Short Bus View Post
Because I always have to understand "but why????" I did some searching and came across this explanation...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine...ustion_engines



So the answer to why this is happening on K04 cars is..... more fuel means more heat, it's as simple as that.

If you have a K04 and you're overheating your options are:

1. improve the car's ability to remove heat via coolant or oil (better radiator, oil cooler)
2. burn less fuel (less boost)

I know some of you are thinking yeah, DUH. But I'm sharing anyway to emphasize the point that maybe if you're going to do track events in these cars you shouldn't run the high output tunes that are created without regard for the cooling system's ability to deal with the heat generated from 15+ minutes with your foot on the floor.
The points you make are very valid. I thought I saw somewhere a thread about an upgraded Oil Pan that held like 2 quarts more oil. I will look for it. Some folks you should call is APR because they race their GTI's and may have an answer for you.

There are many options, I just am not too familiar with this platform to think my options would work. I would not recommend the Use of Water Wetter in our GTI's though, there was a thread about that too, if you are going to use something like that use Purple Ice. Various type of coolers will help, at least with oil temps, coolant temps though, a larger radiator can you VAGCOM the CBFA so the cell light does not come on with an upgraded aluminum radiator?

Call APR. Then report back to us please....Im curious to their suggestions.


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Old 08-26-2017, 02:38 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by jay745 View Post
I have one, still have cooling issues when tracking. Next plan is removing the fmic, swapping to a sandwich IC and running an oil cooler

Did yours install cleanly? The 2-3 Ive seen installed in person have all required some work to install i.e. Tapping hardware points or having to warranty because of leaking issues - it was not a plug and play install. That $1000 price tag makes it harder to swallow when it's not an easy install compared to a few hundred for an OEM radiator.


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Old 08-26-2017, 05:02 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Jeffs2013GTI View Post
The points you make are very valid. I thought I saw somewhere a thread about an upgraded Oil Pan that held like 2 quarts more oil. I will look for it. Some folks you should call is APR because they race their GTI's and may have an answer for you.

There are many options, I just am not too familiar with this platform to think my options would work. I would not recommend the Use of Water Wetter in our GTI's though, there was a thread about that too, if you are going to use something like that use Purple Ice. Various type of coolers will help, at least with oil temps, coolant temps though, a larger radiator can you VAGCOM the CBFA so the cell light does not come on with an upgraded aluminum radiator?

Call APR. Then report back to us please....Im curious to their suggestions.


Jeff
The larger oil pan should help, but I don't think I'd count on that alone. You'll certainly want to take logs of the coolant temp over the course of a session and if you see it trend upward at all you'll need to make more adjustments.

A setup I would consider is to install a water injection system and use it purely as "liquid intercooler" to keep IATs under control so you can run the thinnest physical intercooler to maximize airflow to the radiator itself.

On the street you can run water/meth through it with a high output tune for giggles where you don't have to worry about temp creep and overheating. On the track run a lower output tune with only water meant to keep your foot on the floor for 25 minutes at a time.
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Old 08-26-2017, 05:26 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Short Bus View Post
The larger oil pan should help, but I don't think I'd count on that alone. You'll certainly want to take logs of the coolant temp over the course of a session and if you see it trend upward at all you'll need to make more adjustments.

A setup I would consider is to install a water injection system and use it purely as "liquid intercooler" to keep IATs under control so you can run the thinnest physical intercooler to maximize airflow to the radiator itself.

On the street you can run water/meth through it with a high output tune for giggles where you don't have to worry about temp creep and overheating. On the track run a lower output tune with only water meant to keep your foot on the floor for 25 minutes at a time.
You are right in Theory. Again, APR has years of racing experience and they would have more "hands on" experience than any of us. Be best to ask their advice.

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Old 08-26-2017, 06:47 PM   #55
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You are right in Theory. Again, APR has years of racing experience and they would have more "hands on" experience than any of us. Be best to ask their advice.

Jeff
Certainly, their first hand knowledge pretty much supersedes any forum speculation. But in the absence of that data you can still make some educated guesses.
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Old 08-26-2017, 07:34 PM   #56
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Certainly, their first hand knowledge pretty much supersedes any forum speculation. But in the absence of that data you can still make some educated guesses.
Indeed, totally agree, I think we are all on the same page, but this guy needs answers not our mutual agreed upon guess's. I am curious to know the answer myself because I am considering a K04 part time track car build and where I live is usually the warmest in the country during the summer months so this is a big deal to me. If I cant keep the car cool, then I may pass on the build all together.

So OP if you contact APR Please share with us...


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