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Old 11-07-2017, 09:16 AM   #43
hbrown0509
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Then you're probably ok, but if that flapper door is hung up, broken, etc, then you'll have a boost leak that the ECU will attempt to compensate for and you'll get major fluctuations


Thanks for the info. It only happens in gears 3-6 going from low/mid-WOT. Pretty much 2500-3800 rpms. It just seems that at 32k miles the turbo shouldnít be crapping out.


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Old 11-07-2017, 01:07 PM   #44
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Thanks for the info. It only happens in gears 3-6 going from low/mid-WOT. Pretty much 2500-3800 rpms. It just seems that at 32k miles the turbo shouldnít be crapping out.


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Likely because at those rpms, and gears, the engine load is high, which requires boost almost immediately once you get on the throttle much more.

How about in say 3rd @ 4500-5k?
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Old 11-07-2017, 02:02 PM   #45
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Likely because at those rpms, and gears, the engine load is high, which requires boost almost immediately once you get on the throttle much more.



How about in say 3rd @ 4500-5k?


That is correct. Similar to what my GIAC dealer says.

Yeah in those RPM ranges itís fine. Iím guessing because Iím outside the efficiency range of the turbo.


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Old 11-07-2017, 02:49 PM   #46
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OP here, cool to see this thread getting traction. I actually do have an update as of very recently.

This problem had persisted for me through V2.4 of the APR tune, and the oscillations started to get pretty bad and overall off-boost performance was pretty crummy. I was getting boost oscillations even going from coast to WOT above 4k RPM, and it seemed to be taking longer than it should to reach peak boost, and would hunt and oscillate on its way there.

Then recently Arin posted in the massive APR Stage 1 V2.0 thread about an example where someone having issues like this was able to fix the issues by thoroughly checking for boost leaks, particularly PCV-related issues.

I said to myself forget this, let me go in and make sure that everything in the engine bay that I've touched has been really torqued down well enough. I'd replaced the PCV plate and had previously cleaned the IAT sensor, so I added about a quarter turn more to every bolt on the PCV plate (stopping short of uncomfortable tightness) and the bolt on the IAT sensor. I also re-checked the spark plug torque, since in the past I had issues with not quite enough torque there, especially after being dumb and re-using the crush washers after checking the plug gaps.

Although I'm really hesitant to believe it, it honestly made a pretty massive difference. Boost oscillations are pretty much gone, and off-boost behavior is way better. I strongly think it was something about how the PCV plate was mounted that the car wasn't happy with, and it was probably affecting how the PCV system operated and possibly allowing boost to go where it shouldn't, or otherwise messing things up.

Check the simple stuff first. I swore up and down that it was the tune and was ready to drop $650 on a Cobb Accessport with a Stratified tune.

Do I think APR's wastegate PID tuning needs refinement? Sure. Could things be made even a bit better by replacing the N75 anyways? Probably. Sometimes boost onset feels a little too muted, and sometimes engine braking isn't strong enough, and sometimes the throttle pedal response isn't perfect at low speeds (tune imperfections). But simply re-torquing everything down seems to have largely addressed my issues. I hate that that's my answer, but that's what it is.

Time will tell if 1.) this was a real fix and 2.) if symptoms will return. But let me tell you this: I was reluctant to have friends drive the car because it felt broken and like there was only a vague suggestion of a relationship between the accelerator pedal and what the car was doing.

I now wouldn't hesitate to hand the keys to my car enthusiast friends and have them hoon it. They'd probably note how the suspension and bushings are getting sloppy after 143k miles, but that's a different problem space.

Do the easy stuff first, and double-check everything you've touched. Err on the high side of torque recommendations.
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Old 11-07-2017, 02:50 PM   #47
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That is correct. Similar to what my GIAC dealer says.

Yeah in those RPM ranges itís fine. Iím guessing because Iím outside the efficiency range of the turbo.


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I dont keep the exhaust manifold heatshield on my car, so taking the DP loose for me isn't a huge job, but, I would be very interested to see that WG flapper, the pin, etc.

I did a TON of research once I put my wagner IC on and boost went way down. Of course, the f23 was shit, and the WG was junk too...but still is the same problem with a larger IC.

Based on unis measurements of 23.5x2x16.5 = 775 ci, so the internal volume is MUCH larger than the 350 ish of stock. Tuners attempt to compensate for this by upping the WGDC, but as I've said before...mechanically it can only do what it's able.

The rule is that the WGA psi needs to be half of max boost. A 4 psi spring just isn't going to do it. Others with the s3 or stock, etc will say their boost still peaks higher, but the s3 is not a large core IC and all the turbo is doing is spinning hot air coming from a source that's already like a coffee straw vs a normal fountain soda straw, and that air is MUCH hotter than your air coming from your IC. Hot air builds pressure, cooler air is of course more dense, thus heavy, thus can blow the WG open at lesser pressure.

I really do not understand why some tuners just don't get this....really, they don't. I've asked several. Alex @ stratified is the ONLY one who has honestly said even the k04 WGA is maxed at about 22 psi with an efficient set up.

I'm not saying as an absolute that's your problem, the WG could just be failed, the n75 could be bad, etc. I would check that flapper door though. It really might save you a lot of headaches.

Do you know your WGDC as of now?
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Old 11-07-2017, 08:01 PM   #48
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I dont keep the exhaust manifold heatshield on my car, so taking the DP loose for me isn't a huge job, but, I would be very interested to see that WG flapper, the pin, etc.



I did a TON of research once I put my wagner IC on and boost went way down. Of course, the f23 was shit, and the WG was junk too...but still is the same problem with a larger IC.



Based on unis measurements of 23.5x2x16.5 = 775 ci, so the internal volume is MUCH larger than the 350 ish of stock. Tuners attempt to compensate for this by upping the WGDC, but as I've said before...mechanically it can only do what it's able.



The rule is that the WGA psi needs to be half of max boost. A 4 psi spring just isn't going to do it. Others with the s3 or stock, etc will say their boost still peaks higher, but the s3 is not a large core IC and all the turbo is doing is spinning hot air coming from a source that's already like a coffee straw vs a normal fountain soda straw, and that air is MUCH hotter than your air coming from your IC. Hot air builds pressure, cooler air is of course more dense, thus heavy, thus can blow the WG open at lesser pressure.



I really do not understand why some tuners just don't get this....really, they don't. I've asked several. Alex @ stratified is the ONLY one who has honestly said even the k04 WGA is maxed at about 22 psi with an efficient set up.



I'm not saying as an absolute that's your problem, the WG could just be failed, the n75 could be bad, etc. I would check that flapper door though. It really might save you a lot of headaches.



Do you know your WGDC as of now?


Yeah I wish I knew more at the time when I picked the Uni IC. This is my first turbocharged car and itís all Greek to me at times when it comes to the technical things. Thankfully there are guys like you that take the time to explain it all. Makes much more sense to me now. It definitely helps with my IATs and the car can pull like no other with it on.

Just blows my mind what is actually wrong. Iím going to try and see if I can check it tomorrow. Is it easier to try and check it out under the car or from the top?

Itís crazy how all these tuners canít answer that question for you. There are so many options out there now that it makes it difficult to pick the right tuner.

Iím not going to take anything apart until I take it back in to the shop. His tach screen and some module is getting replaced on his mustang dyno and is in the process of getting built. He wants to log the N75 to see what the DC is to know if itís the culprit or not. I trust his work. Has been in the business a long time and knows his shit with these cars.

Also, he has all the files so Iím not sure on the WGDC. I keep trying to get them but every time he says he copies me in when sending to GIAC I never get them.

I was able to do a couple pulls today on an empty road and the car did peak at 20psi and then backed off to 18 psi. So, it can build to peak so Iím assuming thatís a good thing.






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Old 11-07-2017, 08:29 PM   #49
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Yeah I wish I knew more at the time when I picked the Uni IC. This is my first turbocharged car and itís all Greek to me at times when it comes to the technical things. Thankfully there are guys like you that take the time to explain it all. Makes much more sense to me now. It definitely helps with my IATs and the car can pull like no other with it on.

Just blows my mind what is actually wrong. Iím going to try and see if I can check it tomorrow. Is it easier to try and check it out under the car or from the top?

Itís crazy how all these tuners canít answer that question for you. There are so many options out there now that it makes it difficult to pick the right tuner.

Iím not going to take anything apart until I take it back in to the shop. His tach screen and some module is getting replaced on his mustang dyno and is in the process of getting built. He wants to log the N75 to see what the DC is to know if itís the culprit or not. I trust his work. Has been in the business a long time and knows his shit with these cars.

Also, he has all the files so Iím not sure on the WGDC. I keep trying to get them but every time he says he copies me in when sending to GIAC I never get them.

I was able to do a couple pulls today on an empty road and the car did peak at 20psi and then backed off to 18 psi. So, it can build to peak so Iím assuming thatís a good thing.






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A lot of guys will try to talk you out of the WG having issues, but don't pay for stuff you don't need. The very simple issue here is a 4 psi spring trying to hold 20 psi is laughable with a large core IC. Peaking 20 and holding 18 imo is good for the stock ihi. Remember, it's not always about how much boost you're running, but are you running it efficiently? That's the question.
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Old 11-07-2017, 09:45 PM   #50
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A lot of guys will try to talk you out of the WG having issues, but don't pay for stuff you don't need. The very simple issue here is a 4 psi spring trying to hold 20 psi is laughable with a large core IC. Peaking 20 and holding 18 imo is good for the stock ihi. Remember, it's not always about how much boost you're running, but are you running it efficiently? That's the question.


All good questions for me to have when I take it in next time. I just didnít know the IC had that effect with the turbo holding boost. Some reason I thought it would make the turbo work less hard being able to have better flow. I knew that volume can cause you not to peak as high. Because mods after the turbo is the TMD, charge pipe, intercooler, hi-flow throttle body pipe, and of course DP.

If itís the WGA, does that pretty much mean a new turbo?


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Old 11-07-2017, 09:53 PM   #51
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All good questions for me to have when I take it in next time. I just didn’t know the IC had that effect with the turbo holding boost. Some reason I thought it would make the turbo work less hard being able to have better flow. I knew that volume can cause you not to peak as high. Because mods after the turbo is the TMD, charge pipe, intercooler, hi-flow throttle body pipe, and of course DP.

If it’s the WGA, does that pretty much mean a new turbo?


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No, you can put a WGA on the ihi...its less than a new turbo, and I know GIAC has files for it because my friend still has the stock turbo 1/4 record and had the forge WGA on it.

Also, the turbo isn't working harder necessarily, rather it's working less hard to achieve the same amount of flow and power. The cooler air allows you to raise boost without the added heat when psi is increased, thus...morepowah!
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Old 11-07-2017, 10:42 PM   #52
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No, you can put a WGA on the ihi...its less than a new turbo, and I know GIAC has files for it because my friend still has the stock turbo 1/4 record and had the forge WGA on it.


If the turbo has to come off Iíd rather just go K04 lol. Otherwise at least it can be switched out and good to know with your friends car.


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Old 11-08-2017, 12:55 AM   #53
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If the turbo has to come off Iíd rather just go K04 lol. Otherwise at least it can be switched out and good to know with your friends car.


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If you go k04, get the forge WGA and have the turbo ported and polished
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Old 11-08-2017, 09:05 AM   #54
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I was thinking about K04 but why not rock a hybrid turbo if your going to port n polish the k04? DBV2 and Beach Buggy Turbo both make hybrid turbos for our cars that can produce more power than a K04 while keeping the engine internals stock and stock fueling. And they aren't too much more than a brand new k04.

I like the tq that the K04 produces but I want more hp. I want to see something like 380whp and 380wtq rather than 320-330 whp and 400wtq
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Old 11-08-2017, 01:44 PM   #55
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I was thinking about K04 but why not rock a hybrid turbo if your going to port n polish the k04? DBV2 and Beach Buggy Turbo both make hybrid turbos for our cars that can produce more power than a K04 while keeping the engine internals stock and stock fueling. And they aren't too much more than a brand new k04.

I like the tq that the K04 produces but I want more hp. I want to see something like 380whp and 380wtq rather than 320-330 whp and 400wtq
Because a Borg Warner turbo is better made.... we're not talking about TTE turbos here (which are also BW. Also, even when the f23 was putting out good numbers, did you ever see it at on the list of top 1/4 times? K04 or TTE imo. That goes for mabotech as well. I have seen ma my unsatisfactory reviews on his tuning, so I wouldn't trust his turbos.
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Old 11-08-2017, 01:47 PM   #56
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Boost fluctuations and hesitation: APR Stage 1

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If you go k04, get the forge WGA and have the turbo ported and polished


For sure! All the reading Iíve done on this seems like itís the best way to go for better turbo efficiency.

Seems like SoCal P&P is the way to go? Will they re-spec after the P&P?


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