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Old 05-10-2011, 01:02 PM   #15
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grambles,

Great idea for a post! Thanks for taking the time to put it together. I think the forum readers will enjoy a good technical thread.

The compressor map of a K04-64 (OE turbo from the S3 2.0T, in case anyone was wondering) is similar to a GT28R, but it's even closer to a GT2860RS. Here is the GT2860RS Compressor Map:



Garrett Turbo rates the 2860RS up to 360hp. Our TSI K04 Kit produces 370hp on race fuel.

Peak potential flow for the K04 is 0.24 m^3/s or about 38lb/mn which is similar to the GT2860RS.

As you can see, the 2.0T K04 is not like the old school 1.8T K04 turbos. Back then, a K04 was larger than a K03, but was still a pretty small turbo. The K04-64 is one of the largest K04 chassis turbos that BorgWarner has ever made and it can flow a lot of air, comparable to units used in some companies’ stage 3 kits.

Also, in the interest of sharing information here is a compressor map for the FSI K03. The TSI one will look similar.



Cheers!

Last edited by Alex/AWE; 05-10-2011 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:29 PM   #16
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Good deal Alex. Thanks!
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:56 PM   #17
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first thing i thought before even opening this thread: it's a small turbo. good idea for a thread but I think most people know that small turbos are gonna drop off.
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Old 05-11-2011, 02:52 AM   #18
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this thread = like.
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Old 05-11-2011, 08:06 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow Dubmarine View Post
first thing i thought before even opening this thread: it's a small turbo. good idea for a thread but I think most people know that small turbos are gonna drop off.
The point of the thread was to explain why. Assumptions that are not backed by proven theory and physics is ignorant.

If ANYONE is a car enthusiast, its best to know why your car acts the way it does.

Plus, this thread also included K04 comparisons
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Old 05-11-2011, 11:10 AM   #20
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This thread is dope. No need to defend IMO.

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Old 06-13-2011, 09:12 PM   #21
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Awesome thread! There should be more like this in these technical forums. I love learning about this stuff

Grambles, can you plot some of the various K03 and K04 tunes out there on these compressor maps? I think that would give a lot of insight into the different tuning philosophies and methods.
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Old 06-13-2011, 10:10 PM   #22
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Awesome thread! There should be more like this in these technical forums. I love learning about this stuff

Grambles, can you plot some of the various K03 and K04 tunes out there on these compressor maps? I think that would give a lot of insight into the different tuning philosophies and methods.
Will do. I'm just going to need Boost graphs and MAF graphs for every company

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Old 06-13-2011, 10:23 PM   #23
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You cannot compare two turbocharger simply by looking at compressor maps.

Here's a little something you should consider. This is taken directly from Garrett's site:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurbobyGarrett
Turbine A/R - Turbine performance is greatly affected by changing the A/R of the housing, as it is used to adjust the flow capacity of the turbine. Using a smaller A/R will increase the exhaust gas velocity into the turbine wheel. This provides increased turbine power at lower engine speeds, resulting in a quicker boost rise. However, a small A/R also causes the flow to enter the wheel more tangentially, which reduces the ultimate flow capacity of the turbine wheel. This will tend to increase exhaust backpressure and hence reduce the engine's ability to "breathe" effectively at high RPM, adversely affecting peak engine power.
Two turbos could have similar compressor wheels or similar compressor maps, however simply changing the turbine can greatly alter the results.

Smaller A/R = quicker boost onset but less efficient and choked out top end.
Larger A/R = slower boost onset but more efficient and more top end.
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Old 06-13-2011, 11:04 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
You cannot compare two turbocharger simply by looking at compressor maps.

Here's a little something you should consider. This is taken directly from Garrett's site:



Two turbos could have similar compressor wheels or similar compressor maps, however simply changing the turbine can greatly alter the results.

Smaller A/R = quicker boost onset but less efficient and choked out top end.
Larger A/R = slower boost onset but more efficient and more top end.
True but in the most general vague sense, you can. When you start considering engine performance vs. compressor performance, you've got many many many other factors to consider, which I know you know that, but for the rest of the readers.....

EDIT: I just breezed over your post, and I thought you were talking about AF ratio. I'm retarded lol AR ratios should be mentioned on the MAP and is considered in the overall performance. If you change the A/R a new map should be produced. If what you said is true about similar turbine trims, then you can easily see the change between the two maps and the difference in the A/R ratio.

Good stuff though.
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Last edited by grambles423; 06-14-2011 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 06-13-2011, 11:36 PM   #25
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Old 06-14-2011, 09:49 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grambles423 View Post
EDIT: I just breezed over your post, and I thought you were talking about AF ratio. I'm retarded lol AR ratios should be mentioned on the MAP and is considered in the overall performance. If you change the A/R a new map should be produced. If what you said is true about similar turbine trims, then you can easily see the change between the two maps and the difference in the A/R ratio.
Yeah, I'm speaking about the turbine A/R. For example, the GT2860RS has a .64 A/R or an optional .86 A/R.
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:37 AM   #27
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Quote:
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Yeah, I'm speaking about the turbine A/R. For example, the GT2860RS has a .64 A/R or an optional .86 A/R.
I know, but I believe they would provide MAPs for both A/R ratios, correct? I havent really checked before. I just kind of assumed they did.

Also, ARIN, ever have any MECH/Quality/Warranty Engineering openings at APR?
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Old 06-14-2011, 12:07 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grambles423 View Post
I know, but I believe they would provide MAPs for both A/R ratios, correct? I havent really checked before. I just kind of assumed they did.
I may need to look a little harder but on Garretts website they only have the compressor map with no mention of the turbine side. I may need to study it a little more but I'm also confused how compressor maps could be anything more than an estimate. Also, no ambient conditions are on the map (they are on one of the k04 maps I have).

Quote:
Also, ARIN, ever have any MECH/Quality/Qarranty Engineering openings at APR?
In all areas of APR we are always looking for new tallent. Our engineering staff has expanded rapidly over the past few years so yes, I'd love to see your resume.
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