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Old 10-30-2011, 04:22 PM   #1
PandaGTI
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OEM pistons/ rods vs aftermarket

So I've searched this topic, but not finding too much solid info on any of this.

What is the weak point in the TSI engine?

I've read that it's the cast rods and that the pistons are either forged or reinforced cast.

Additionally I've also kinda found out that the FSI engine specific for the GOlf R and TT-S already have forged rods and pistons to support the factory Ko4.

So any of the big tuning companies out there have any insight into what goes into the OEM part? and I don't want no BS answer that their test cars have done numerous dyno pulls as well as street racing/ 1/4 mile racing and none of their cars have any issues pushing upwards of 400hp... because the internals will handle that, but I think/ finding heavy track work on a every other month for the past 20,000 miles can make a significant impact.

I'm leaning towards forged rods with OEM pistons & piston rings vs forged pistons and forged rods... any input? how many more hours of labor is involved vs just replacing a head gasket?
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:17 PM   #2
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Currently, the TSI's internals can handle the stress from a K04 setup, but I believe with a GT30, or greater, you will need to upgrade. Not sure if the GT27 will be alright without them. I know there are BT kits, which normally contain the internal upgrades.
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:47 PM   #3
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Currently, the TSI's internals can handle the stress from a K04 setup, but I believe with a GT30, or greater, you will need to upgrade. Not sure if the GT27 will be alright without them. I know there are BT kits, which normally contain the internal upgrades.
True, it can handle the stress of a little Ko4 if the car is just street driven, doing dyno pulls, and the occasional stop light race...

but I'm finding out the hardway$$$ that after time (20,000 miles on my setup), lots of track days (imagine a dyno pull under even more load, over and over again, lasting 15-30 minutes at a time all day every other month)... that the engine isn't holding up

interestingly the Golf R FSI engine and TT-S and S3 engines are older design however has forged internals already from the factory to run the oem Ko4.

Oh wellz gots to pay$$$ to play... thats why I'm speculating a bottom end build vs just fixing a leaking headgasket that the stealership says its from the increased boost... but dunoo till the engine is apart and the shop I have the car with is waiting on a back ordered tool from VW to take apart the engine... so another 2 weeks before the tool comes inm and I find out what damage lies inside
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:52 PM   #4
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Nah bro, the old FSI in the MKVs, and audis needed replacement internals to hold up too. The revision that they supposedly put in the Golf R is completely different setup.

Also, if a headgasket is the only current sign of extreme wear and tear from your K04 upgrade, then you're sitting petty, right now. Head Gasket on my MKV GTI went at Stage 2 with 20k. Had it replaced. These don't hold up for shit, and the part is literally $30 and 30mins to replace, if you have the right tools. I believe over time, even Stage 1/2 cars on factory turbo will blow the head gasket. Probably within 40k miles. Just gotta be sure to check your plugs and coilpacks every couple thousand miles for excessive oil build up.
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Old 10-30-2011, 07:05 PM   #5
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Nah bro, the old FSI in the MKVs, and audis needed replacement internals to hold up too. The revision that they supposedly put in the Golf R is completely different setup.

Also, if a headgasket is the only current sign of extreme wear and tear from your K04 upgrade, then you're sitting petty, right now. Head Gasket on my MKV GTI went at Stage 2 with 20k. Had it replaced. These don't hold up for shit, and the part is literally $30 and 30mins to replace, if you have the right tools. I believe over time, even Stage 1/2 cars on factory turbo will blow the head gasket. Probably within 40k miles. Just gotta be sure to check your plugs and coilpacks every couple thousand miles for excessive oil build up.

if you're talking about the regular MKV and TFSI Audi's, those dont have the upgraded internals... but from what I've gathered the Golf R20 and TT-S has forged internals, I dunno if the 2012 GTI edition 35 has forged internals however, but it does run a detuned FSI with Ko4 as well.

30 minutes to replace a headgasket? you must be talking about the valvcover gasket which can go from increased pressure caused by a failing PCV system... I wish it was that as that would have been covered under warranty. The stealership ran dye through my oil and saw that it came out from the headgasket area... at least 7 hours to replace as 1/2 the engine needs to come apart...
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Old 10-30-2011, 07:07 PM   #6
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Well you don't need to have a failed PCV to bunk the valve head gasket. That's beside the point, though.

So you're dumping oil from the bottom end? I would take it to a different dealer. Maybe a more mod friendly one.
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Old 10-30-2011, 07:19 PM   #7
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Well you don't need to have a failed PCV to bunk the valve head gasket. That's beside the point, though.

So you're dumping oil from the bottom end? I would take it to a different dealer. Maybe a more mod friendly one.
I'm not dumping oil, not even smoking from the exhaust, or oil and water mixing... my only symptom is that it won't go past 15 psi. (the Ko4 usually hits 20 psi)... no CEL's either... other than that the car still pulls good... but kinda lacking

Up on the lift I can see dried oil on the back side of the engine...

I have it at a local popular VW tuning shop recommended by many, i dunno if they have gotten around to doing any compression tests or leak down tests to see where the problem could be... I don't want too pushy

However there is another Ko4'd GTI on this board who for whatever reason wants to remain un-named (maybe he is sponsored by one of the big companies cause he competitively does time-attack) that damaged the internals as well and is doing a full on engine rebuild... however although my car was one of the first to go under the knife for a Ko4 after pushing for it's release, I'm not sponsored by anyone who can help with the costs of all this even though I do amateur time attack stuff often.
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Old 10-30-2011, 07:22 PM   #8
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Get sponsored.

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Old 10-30-2011, 07:23 PM   #9
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Not sure how badly you're pushing your car, but it sounds like typical wear and tear on a car.

Just a shot in the dark here, have you checked all the hoses and the dv? I understand you're not boosting at 20psi, but what about your peak? Does that hit 25, or 20?

My senses are pointing to a leak, not necessarily from the head gask. Dried oil on the back of the engine? Got any pics? Any trail seepage to trace?
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Old 10-30-2011, 07:32 PM   #10
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Not sure how badly you're pushing your car, but it sounds like typical wear and tear on a car.

Just a shot in the dark here, have you checked all the hoses and the dv? I understand you're not boosting at 20psi, but what about your peak? Does that hit 25, or 20?

My senses are pointing to a leak, not necessarily from the head gask. Dried oil on the back of the engine? Got any pics? Any trail seepage to trace?
Peak right now is 15... before it would peak at 21/22 then settle back to 19/20 psi

I'm gonna bug the shop in the AM to see if they did any diagnostic tests on the car to see if it is leaking anywhere else...
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Old 10-30-2011, 07:39 PM   #11
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Get sponsored.

I actually looked into that before, got offered to send pics and mod list for a local group of enthusiasts which would lead to tons of sponsorship stuff.

But then again I don't want to have to bring my car to all the car shows for that either. I would however do all the local track events

After this all gets sorted out the car doesn't need much more to be competitive... oil cooler, mishimoto radiator, camber plates, AST coilovers... next year I might go as far as stripping the interior, race seats, roll cage since I've got Honda's version of "attack of the beige" to drive right now (gawd I'm getting serious withdrawals in this silver 4 door sedan!!!)
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Old 10-30-2011, 09:58 PM   #12
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Get sponsored.

Not as fun as it sounds. Been there done that. Lots of free parts but need to have the car readily available for testing, shows, etc. In my early 20's it was fun but now with real life and a mortgage it's not as easy to just be sponsored. Panda doesnt' have that kinda time in his life.

Panda did his car his way and did the K04 early on. 20k on it is impressive and the fact that he takes his car to the track regularly he is a great test to really see how the stock TSI holds up to the K04.

Sorry man. I hope things get worked out soon. I'll hook you up with a radiator when you're ready.
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Old 10-30-2011, 10:10 PM   #13
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Rods definitely but I heard it was the block @ 450 crank. Dunno if this it true yet. My tuner told me this yesterday. Said the FSI block could handle more. I'm looking into this now since I'm planning on a 500-525 crank build for my TSI.

The head flows much better than the FSI though.
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Old 10-30-2011, 10:15 PM   #14
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Rods definitely but I heard it was the block @ 450 crank. Dunno if this it true yet. My tuner told me this yesterday. Said the FSI block could handle more. I'm looking into this now since I'm planning on a 500-525 crank build for my TSI.

The head flows much better than the FSI though.
Wouldn't you be surprised if that was the case? I mean is APR going to release a retail kit that puts out more than the block can handle? WAY more if you are going to do 3+ 100 tune.
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