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Old 07-17-2012, 10:15 AM   #1
patrickj
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VWR CAI vs. Carbonio intake for Golf R

Can anyone speak to the difference between the performance impact of these 2 intakes? I like the VWR CAI, but it requires replacing the engine cover with the cover from an Audi TTS (to keep the clean under the hood look). The Carbonio just bolts onto the front of the existing engine cover/intake combo and looks clean and doesn't require the engine cover replacement.

I thought the engine cover/intake might be restrictive, but I'm not sure. Anybody have any performance numbers for the 2 intakes?

I'm currently APR Stage I flash and will be adding a HPFP, one of the 2 intakes, and probably the APR TBE with software.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.
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Old 07-17-2012, 10:25 AM   #2
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look at the neuspeed carbon fiber engine cover.. looks gorgeous and keeps it very clean and should work with the vwr intake.. from what i understand when you start doing a bit of tuning into the stage 2 apr area teh vwr will give you better results.
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Old 07-17-2012, 10:45 AM   #3
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I installed a CAI similar to VWR's then got sick of the sound and switched to Carbonio and been happy ever since. There was a period where i was running stock filter and airbox and switched to Carbonio and actually noticed a difference (stage 2 car). I also modified my engine cover slightly when I installed my Carbonio and received greater results because of it (Datalog backed it up).

VWR will perform greater no doubt, Carbonio will appear cleaner and not give any obnoxious noise though. VWR is literally double the price as well.

APR accepted the Carbonio intake and ran it on their cars for YEARS and I don't believe they would have done that if the Carbonio for the FSI motor was truly a flop. It shows in my logs to push more air than the intake I came from.

If money isn't a thing, you don't mind the noise and want the extra 5bhp then do the VWR intake as I don't think anything on the market performs better. Frankly, If I can get a guarantee it will work with APR's FSI K04 tune I'm going to put my Carbonio up for sale and switching.
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Old 07-17-2012, 02:04 PM   #4
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I'm curious on what intakes (if any) are CARB approved. Not an issue for most I know, but my personal preference is to have hardware that does not need to be removed.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:40 AM   #5
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I appreciate the comments and you sharing your experience. I'm not going any further than stage 2 or 2+. Not quite sure which. I'll have the intake, HPFP, TBE and appropriate software. This is my DD and I'd prefer it be reliable, but fun.

I was leaning toward the VWR, but I've read about some fitament issues and am still unsure if the stock engine cover is the bottleneck on airflow. I think from an engineering standpoint, with the tune, that there is an optimal amount of air flowing into the turbo and I don't know which, if any or all of the intakes provides that volume. I like the look of the VWR with the Audi TTS engine cover, but if I go Carbonio, I can take the $500 difference (replacement engine cover and difference in intake costs) and put that toward the exhaust. I think the TBE makes a much bigger difference than any of the intakes would.

To me, it's not just about money, but performance for the $. I don't mind paying, but I'm not convinced that the VWR CAI is that much better than the Carbonio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKV727 View Post
I installed a CAI similar to VWR's then got sick of the sound and switched to Carbonio and been happy ever since. There was a period where i was running stock filter and airbox and switched to Carbonio and actually noticed a difference (stage 2 car). I also modified my engine cover slightly when I installed my Carbonio and received greater results because of it (Datalog backed it up).

VWR will perform greater no doubt, Carbonio will appear cleaner and not give any obnoxious noise though. VWR is literally double the price as well.

APR accepted the Carbonio intake and ran it on their cars for YEARS and I don't believe they would have done that if the Carbonio for the FSI motor was truly a flop. It shows in my logs to push more air than the intake I came from.

If money isn't a thing, you don't mind the noise and want the extra 5bhp then do the VWR intake as I don't think anything on the market performs better. Frankly, If I can get a guarantee it will work with APR's FSI K04 tune I'm going to put my Carbonio up for sale and switching.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:58 AM   #6
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Double post, sorry.
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:03 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickj View Post
I appreciate the comments and you sharing your experience. I'm not going any further than stage 2 or 2+. Not quite sure which. I'll have the intake, HPFP, TBE and appropriate software. This is my DD and I'd prefer it be reliable, but fun.

I was leaning toward the VWR, but I've read about some fitament issues and am still unsure if the stock engine cover is the bottleneck on airflow. I think from an engineering standpoint, with the tune, that there is an optimal amount of air flowing into the turbo and I don't know which, if any or all of the intakes provides that volume. I like the look of the VWR with the Audi TTS engine cover, but if I go Carbonio, I can take the $500 difference (replacement engine cover and difference in intake costs) and put that toward the exhaust. I think the TBE makes a much bigger difference than any of the intakes would.

To me, it's not just about money, but performance for the $. I don't mind paying, but I'm not convinced that the VWR CAI is that much better than the Carbonio.
I talked with my mechanic and he has installed both intakes on the R. The Carbonio has come off one one and the VWR has stayed on. The Carbonio wont bring in enough air for the type of perfomance needed for Stage 2 or more. i think you are over analyizing it as did I. If performance doesnt matter as mch as the OEM look then go Carbonio, not to much else to really analyize. Hope that helps. I went with the VWR. GMP Performance has a few coming in this week!
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:30 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKV727 View Post
I installed a CAI similar to VWR's then got sick of the sound and switched to Carbonio and been happy ever since. There was a period where i was running stock filter and airbox and switched to Carbonio and actually noticed a difference (stage 2 car). I also modified my engine cover slightly when I installed my Carbonio and received greater results because of it (Datalog backed it up).

VWR will perform greater no doubt, Carbonio will appear cleaner and not give any obnoxious noise though. VWR is literally double the price as well.

APR accepted the Carbonio intake and ran it on their cars for YEARS and I don't believe they would have done that if the Carbonio for the FSI motor was truly a flop. It shows in my logs to push more air than the intake I came from.

If money isn't a thing, you don't mind the noise and want the extra 5bhp then do the VWR intake as I don't think anything on the market performs better. Frankly, If I can get a guarantee it will work with APR's FSI K04 tune I'm going to put my Carbonio up for sale and switching.
What did you do to your stock air box/engine cover with the Carbonio to "get better results"? Did you get better airflow and if so, what was the delta?
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:33 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKV727 View Post
I installed a CAI similar to VWR's then got sick of the sound and switched to Carbonio and been happy ever since.

Is it really that obnoxious?
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:37 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxmagnusxx View Post
What did you do to your stock air box/engine cover with the Carbonio to "get better results"? Did you get better airflow and if so, what was the delta?
I'd like to know as well if you don't mind.
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Old 07-18-2012, 12:12 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by droopy1592 View Post
Is it really that obnoxious?
A filter on a stick (an intake with a filter that is not enclosed) is really that obnoxious. The Forge Wintake is obnoxiously loud, it's practically identical to VWR's intake too.

The Delta I got from the modifications was at one time 7.7% greater flow but it came at a price. I removed the fins at the beginning of the engine cover, removed the MAF screen and the housing that holds it to the outlet of the engine cover. It ran fine at WOT but under heavy load, low RPM it would misfire. According to my MAF readings the average across the RPM was 7.9% greater and a bit higher than that past 4800 RPMs.

I put the MAF screen back in as well as the housing and all misfires vanished, new logs showed a gain of 4.8% airflow with OEM drive ability.

I also recorded the MAF airflow with a K&N filter I had lying around and it was literally negative 1.2% from supplied filter and all stock air box.

I'll post photos tonight.
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Old 07-18-2012, 12:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKV727 View Post
A filter on a stick (an intake with a filter that is not enclosed) is really that obnoxious. The Forge Wintake is obnoxiously loud, it's practically identical to VWR's intake too.

The Delta I got from the modifications was at one time 7.7% greater flow but it came at a price. I removed the fins at the beginning of the engine cover, removed the MAF screen and the housing that holds it to the outlet of the engine cover. It ran fine at WOT but under heavy load, low RPM it would misfire. According to my MAF readings the average across the RPM was 7.9% greater and a bit higher than that past 4800 RPMs.

I put the MAF screen back in as well as the housing and all misfires vanished, new logs showed a gain of 4.8% airflow with OEM drive ability.

I also recorded the MAF airflow with a K&N filter I had lying around and it was literally negative 1.2% from supplied filter and all stock air box.

I'll post photos tonight.
Thanks. It looks like the mods to the stock airbox/engine cover aren't worth the loss.
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:09 PM   #13
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Thanks. It looks like the mods to the stock airbox/engine cover aren't worth the loss.
So basically, you took the fins out?
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:23 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxmagnusxx View Post
Thanks. It looks like the mods to the stock airbox/engine cover aren't worth the loss.
Taking the fins out has no drawback... It's free, there's no visual signs of tampering and believe it or not a 5% increase in air is huge. When I calculated the data I almost fell over. I was truly expecting nothing or maybe a max 1% increase.
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Old 07-18-2012, 03:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copizza View Post
I talked with my mechanic and he has installed both intakes on the R. The Carbonio has come off one one and the VWR has stayed on. The Carbonio wont bring in enough air for the type of perfomance needed for Stage 2 or more. i think you are over analyizing it as did I. If performance doesnt matter as mch as the OEM look then go Carbonio, not to much else to really analyize. Hope that helps. I went with the VWR. GMP Performance has a few coming in this week!
This has been verified by another vendor as well. The Carbonio doesn't replace the stock filter on the R and it's the filter/cover that's the huge restriction on our car. BSH was able to get a 25AWHP/32TQ gain on 91 in Arizona using their intake over stock at stage 2. They are currently trying to do the same test using an otherwise stock car to show what the gains would be there as well.
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Old 07-18-2012, 03:46 PM   #16
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http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...husiasts/page5

This guy kept the stock filter in and measured the difference from the Carbonio scoop and showed that's where majority of the gains come from.

Carbonio supplies you with a piper cross foam filter which is superior to any K&N style filter. The K&N has a border on the edges and that prohibits flow in the engine cover.
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Old 07-18-2012, 05:11 PM   #17
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Newbie questions....

Hi guys,

I am new to the forum; just picked up a 2012 R. I wanted to know can I install the Carbonio intake without a tune? Also, would you mind telling me what the part #'s were for your R?

Thanks!!
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Old 07-18-2012, 05:13 PM   #18
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Vwr will definitely give out more gains up top, but will be much louder and will diminish low-end drivability.
Carbonio being more an upgrade to the stock system rather than a true cai will give out less high end gains, but will maintain and improve oem low end drivability, will b more discreet and keep ur engine cover. It depends on ur personal preference. I tried a twintake but ended up keeping the carbonio cause that's what i prefer. What i sacrificed up top removing the twintake was compensated by a DP, plus the low end drivability of the carbonio.
On a stage 1 tune my logs with carbonio have shown an improvement of 9 Nm-crank over stock intake at the red line.


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Old 07-18-2012, 06:18 PM   #19
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I never tried the Carbino, but everyone I talked to (including the guy who runs the service department at my dealer) told me to go with the VWR.. So I did, and couldn't be happier. First of all (of course this is a matter of opinion) I don't think it's too loud at all. I'm @ stage 2+ with the full APR RSC exhaust and all I keep hearing from everyone who hears the car is how amazing it sounds. You do clearly hear the DV, but it's nowhere near as obnoxious as a straight BOV. There was an acquaintance through a friend trying to race me the other day in a Mazda3 who had the loudest BOV I've ever heard.. I declined the drag, but when we left, my friend in the car turned to me and said "see, at least your car sounds powerful under load, but controlled and classy... he just sounds like an idiot."

As far as drivability.. I could see if you were not planning on going stage 2 for a while how the low end might be a problem, but I went from stock to stage 2+ in one afternoon, and with all that extra punch it's not a problem for me at all. It feels like its an extremely smooth delivery of power over the whole range.. At least compared to other modified boosted cars I've owned.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:42 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKV727 View Post
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...husiasts/page5

This guy kept the stock filter in and measured the difference from the Carbonio scoop and showed that's where majority of the gains come from.

Carbonio supplies you with a piper cross foam filter which is superior to any K&N style filter. The K&N has a border on the edges and that prohibits flow in the engine cover.
Mike did great testing and clearly showed that the stock setup is indeed restrictive. The Carbonio helped with that but a restriction remained in stock form. Slap a tune on there and it gets worse quick, BSH proved that with their insane gains from just adding an intake. A high flow air filter in the stock air box is a band-aid.

It's a shame he never posted MAF reading for those tests as those and readings from the same car with a VWR intake would have really told the entire story.

Quote:
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Vwr will definitely give out more gains up top, but will be much louder and will diminish low-end drivability.
Curious as to what low end drivability sacrifice you are referring to and to what type of car. Stock? I've noticed no low end loss at stg 1 - 2+ with a full aftermarket intake.
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