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Subframe Shift: Camber is Off (Tyrol Rigid Collar Kit)

grambles423

grambles423

Automotive Engineer
Hello everyone.

My camber is off, was recently aligned, and its off again which leads me to believe my subframe is shifted. Sure enough, upon looking at my rear shear bolts, there is a good 2mm difference to the passenger's side which would coorelate to my camber numbers.



My theory is that I can purchase the locating pins (~$34), bolt them to where they need to be (Consoles and LCA Mounts) and loosen the front and rear bolts on the main subframe and let the pins do the locating, that way everything is centered up to their appropriate datums. THEN get realigned and then maybe it'll actually stay.

Thoughts? Does anyone have experience in this area?
 
grambles423

grambles423

Automotive Engineer
Hmmmm.....Tyrol Deadset Subframe Collar kit might be the key here. Plus it'll make the subframe rigid and index it and wont move the life of the car
 
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lilfleck

Go Kart Champion
I feel like another company was working on bolts that looked just like the TyrolSport kit. That is wildly expensive though for a few bolts and fancy washers.

What surprises me is that you have the beefier subframe bolts from ECS (right?).

Curious, what are locating pins?
 
grambles423

grambles423

Automotive Engineer
lilfleck said:
I feel like another company was working on bolts that looked just like the TyrolSport kit. That is wildly expensive though for a few bolts and fancy washers.

What surprises me is that you have the beefier subframe bolts from ECS (right?).

Curious, what are locating pins?
Click to expand...

I do agree the price is rich, but for high quality machined bronze collars with a pretty good manufacturing tolerances to fit all the variating subframes, I think it might be worth it. Plus the idea behind them is to prevent the clunk AS WELL AS prevent shifting which is my concern right now.

The shims and bolts have nothing to do with the subframe shifting due to chassis flex. The dealer aligned me very nicely and within a week I'm back to where I was. A slight pull to the left and that wandering feeling.
 
Confuzed

Confuzed

Go Kart Champion
I get the clunk but also get the wandering from time to time. The Tyrolsport kit, its pricey but necessary at this point.
 
grambles423

grambles423

Automotive Engineer
confuc1ous said:
I get the clunk but also get the wandering from time to time. The Tyrolsport kit, its pricey but necessary at this point.
Click to expand...

They way I see it is this. If I'm so focused on making the underbody so solid with braces, sway bars, mounts and such....why do I skip out on the most important component that links the drivetrain to the suspension?

The collars not only index to subframe to the whitebody, but it also provide rigidity to make sure the subframe does not shift out of spec and throw your camber off.

Before I was aligned my camber was 0.52 and 1.19 left to right respectively. Afterwards I was almost dead even and the car drove MUCH better. Now, the car feels the same as it did BEFORE it was aligned tell me that the alignment was a total waste of money.
 
zhijjawi10

zhijjawi10

Go Kart Champion
The tyrolsport bushings / bolts solved my subframe issues. I had clunking and subframe shifting. All gone now. It's worth the $200 or whatever it is.
 
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f00kie1

Go Kart Champion
zhijjawi10 said:
The tyrolsport bushings / bolts solved my subframe issues. I had clunking and subframe shifting. All gone now. It's worth the $200 or whatever it is.
Click to expand...

Exactly! Just installed this two weekends ago -- I know it's expensive, but it works! Got rid of all subframe noise (although I still have some noise on my front upper strut mounts that I'm working on rectifying).

By the way, it's a bitch to install. Took a while -- there's a reason why the factor drills larger holes (because it isn't easy to make all 6 bolts align). Also, make sure to torque the bolts properly. I broke one that holds the steering rack to the subframe (thinking it was 70NM instead of the 50NM it actually is) -- the dealership wanted $700 to take the whole subframe off to extract it. Instead, I had to drill it out (which wasn't hard at all), but in the mean time, the noise was pretty bad.

All good now though. Highly recommend the kit. They're also working on a kit for the rear that should be out before the end of the year.

PS. I had the TSB/ECS spacers -- they didn't work. You could tell because the grooves wore off.
 
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lilfleck

Go Kart Champion
grambles423 said:
They way I see it is this. If I'm so focused on making the underbody so solid with braces, sway bars, mounts and such....why do I skip out on the most important component that links the drivetrain to the suspension?

The collars not only index to subframe to the whitebody, but it also provide rigidity to make sure the subframe does not shift out of spec and throw your camber off.

Before I was aligned my camber was 0.52 and 1.19 left to right respectively. Afterwards I was almost dead even and the car drove MUCH better. Now, the car feels the same as it did BEFORE it was aligned tell me that the alignment was a total waste of money.
Click to expand...
If you haven't notified the dealer yet, I would make whatever adjustments you are going to do (locating pins, ECS bolts, or Tyrol collar bolts) and go back to the dealer and let them know its not right... I mean, inadequate subframe bolts is not our fault (right?).

f00kie said:
Exactly! Just installed this two weekends ago -- I know it's expensive, but it works! Got rid of all subframe noise (although I still have some noise on my front upper strut mounts that I'm working on rectifying).

By the way, it's a bitch to install. Took a while -- there's a reason why the factor drills larger holes (because it isn't easy to make all 6 bolts align). Also, make sure to torque the bolts properly. I broke one that holds the steering rack to the subframe (thinking it was 70NM instead of the 50NM it actually is) -- the dealership wanted $700 to take the whole subframe off to extract it. Instead, I had to drill it out (which wasn't hard at all), but in the mean time, the noise was pretty bad.

All good now though. Highly recommend the kit. They're also working on a kit for the rear that should be out before the end of the year.

PS. I had the TSB/ECS spacers -- they didn't work. You could tell because the grooves wore off.
Click to expand...
Any tips on installation? I already had one scare with the subframe during my DP installation (crossthreading :mad0259:). I do not want another if I go this route.

Does anyone know of any other companies who make a similar kit?
 
grambles423

grambles423

Automotive Engineer
lilfleck said:
If you haven't notified the dealer yet, I would make whatever adjustments you are going to do (locating pins, ECS bolts, or Tyrol collar bolts) and go back to the dealer and let them know its not right... I mean, inadequate subframe bolts is not our fault (right?).
Click to expand...

I do no work through my dealer. I do all work myself and just contract their service for stuff I cannot do like tire mounting and alignments. They aligned it the best they could, but mechanically, its not allowing the car to KEEP the alignment.

Any tips on installation? I already had one scare with the subframe during my DP installation (crossthreading :mad0259:). I do not want another if I go this route.

Does anyone know of any other companies who make a similar kit?
Click to expand...

Tyrol based their kit off the MUGEN kit in Japan. Their kit was substantially more money too I believe.

Installation is much like a front sway install. Easy if you've done it before, a little tricky if you havent.
 
Confuzed

Confuzed

Go Kart Champion
Wait, so the HP Racing kit thats being sold that uses stock parts is basically the same thing but with the risk of it happening again?
 
grambles423

grambles423

Automotive Engineer
confuc1ous said:
Wait, so the HP Racing kit thats being sold that uses stock parts is basically the same thing but with the risk of it happening again?
Click to expand...

I havent taken a good look at it, but I know Tyrol did some good research in developing their kit. Its not matter of worry and here's why:

Look at it in theory. You're placing a 8mm (or 10mm...I cant remember) bolt into a 15mm hole. That gives you a +/- Tolerance of 3.5mm in every direction. Tyrol's kit is nothing more than a bushing machined to offset that tolerance and allow the bolt to properly concentrically align to the threaded hole on the body.

This allows the center of the holts to align to the body and allow the entire subframe to be perfectly center. However, this kit also doubles as a fixturing device that LOCKS the subframe from ever moving. Half the reason VW ever make such huge slop is to get better crash ratings on front end collisions. If the subframe shears with the rigid kit, you're bound to destroy the threaded holes thus totaling your vehicle. No worries though.
 
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f00kie1

Go Kart Champion
lilfleck said:
If you haven't notified the dealer yet, I would make whatever adjustments you are going to do (locating pins, ECS bolts, or Tyrol collar bolts) and go back to the dealer and let them know its not right... I mean, inadequate subframe bolts is not our fault (right?).


Any tips on installation? I already had one scare with the subframe during my DP installation (crossthreading :mad0259:). I do not want another if I go this route.

Does anyone know of any other companies who make a similar kit?
Click to expand...

Some tips:
- Do not force bolts: you can tell if you're stripping the bolt
- You may need to undo the steering rack bolts (as instructions state)
- The subframe will not fall if you undo the bolts slightly, so no need to support it with anything. Just don't remove all of the bolts at the same time, do 1 by 1
- Use the jack to help force the collars in place by applying pressure to the subframe

It took me about a half a day to do...
 
L

lilfleck

Go Kart Champion
Ugh, that does sounds like a huge PITA. If I go this route, I think I might pay someone to do this. I don't want to mess anything up.
 
grambles423

grambles423

Automotive Engineer
FYI it was, in fact, SPOON who Tyrol based their design off of.
 
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