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Old 05-25-2013, 07:24 AM   #1
Toledo R
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How to Build a 9 Second GOLF GTI, by solving Direct Injection Fueling problems

Taking the GOLF GTI into the 9s

I have been watching for a long time the many efforts to increase the fueling capability of Direct Injection engines, and I just wanted to let you all know that if you think "Out of the Box", the solution is simple.

You only have to fit the AUDI TT RS HPFP on the TFSI engine.

To do that, you either need to have someone cast, or CNC machine a new Variable Valve timing cover, which will have the TT RS pump mounting points to put the pump in the right position. Then you need to make a Trilobe cam profile, to match the one that comes on the TT RS exhaust cam for the roller cam follower.

The LOBA 2.5 TT RS HPFP, is good to 700HP+ on a 5 cylinder engine, possibly more on a 4 cylinder. If you can convince any of the companies which make uprated HPFP components, to make a slightly larger diameter piston, you immediately get a pump which will be good for 700WHP, which will rev easily (and reliably) to 9000 rpm. There are companies that make bigger pump pistons for the TFSI pump already. Here is an example from HPFP UPGRADE





FOR EXTREME VW FANATICS: Taking the GOLF GTI into the 8's and 7's


Now that you know that 700WHP is easily possible, I would like you to know that it is also possible to double that output, simply by fitting a second TT RS pump. This of course is more complicated, but it is doable by anyone with CAD skills and access to a CNC Mill.

If you look at the TT RS HPFP, you will see that it is all contained on the Cam Carrier, and it is not difficult to design and then CNC machine a 4 cylinder Cam Carrier which will have a provision to mount the TT RS pump, in exactly the same way that the factory has done on the 5 Cylinder engine. To do this, Software Tuners will need to get involved, in order to resolve the issue of Fuel Rail Pressure Regulation with 2 pumps.

One of the problems the designers of the FSI system had, was to minimize Fuel Rail Pressure Pulsations, and one of the ways they did it, was to adjust the volume of the Fuel Rail and lines, to act as a Damping Chamber. This means that you will have to have 2 separate fuel rails, with 2 HP return valves and 2 fuel returns to the tank. It will take some development, but I think it is possible.

If you are lucky, you could get away by using the single pump signal to control both pumps, provided their cam timing is identical in relation to crank rotation. One way that you can reduce Fuel Rail pulsation, is to stagger the 2 pump lobes by 60 degrees, so that there will be a Fuel pressure event, every 60 degrees, instead of 120 degrees. This is a lot more complicated, and will probably require an extra ECU, just to control the second pump solenoid valve, with its own timing settings. The 1500 WHP GOLF will probably be the work of one or more of the Big VW Tuners, who will compete for Bragging Rights, so they should be able to deal with the Electronic side of this fueling Upgrade. Twin HPFP Racing applications will require Billet cams to drive the pumps.

Now that you have solved the Fueling problem of your cars, you can go crazy on turbo size, but always remember that big turbos have a lot of lag, and that means terrible street driveability and a slow spooling and revving engine. I have thought of a simple way to reclaim the spool characteristics of small frame turbos, and I have put it in PDF form, which you can find in the following link. It will be quite easy for you to get ATP TURBO or other VW Companies to make this quick Spool, High Torque, Twin Scroll Turbo Housing. I have uploaded it on the BOX.

Quick Spool, High Torque Twin Scroll Exhaust Housing


The reason you need to get as much torque as possible in the lower rpm range, is because if you have the necessary traction, it has a tremendous effect on the speed by which the engine goes through its rpm range. If you look at the following picture, you will understand what I mean. 4WD GOLFS are heavy, and they need a lot of torque to accelerate. They don't have a problem with traction, as BOBA Motoring has proven with the 8.6 second GOLF 2 VAMPIR.



Here's the torque comparison once again and the rate of acceleration to 7500 rpm. That's over 1.5 seconds faster, just by filling the low rpm area under the Torque curve!

Looking at the performance of Honda's, it is clear that the VW Community has a lot of catching up to do. Horsepower potential is no longer the limiting factor for you.

If a simple Mechanic from BOBA Motoring can build a 16V GOLF 2 all by himself, to embarrass the VEYRON SUPER SPORT and the AMS GTR ALPHA 12, then the American VW Tuning Industry, has a lot of work to do.

VW Golf 2 16V AWD vs Bugatti Veyron Super Sport vs AMS Nissan GTR Alpha 12+ - YouTube


So guys, have fun with this, I will sit down with Popcorn and watch who will get a VW GOLF TFSI first to the 9's, the 8's and finally the 7's...

John

Last edited by Toledo R; 05-29-2013 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 05-25-2013, 09:47 AM   #2
2013R
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i like that HPFP upgrade site, looks like the FSI R fuel pump upgrade is only $500, instead of APR's $1000 or something.

http://hpfpupgrade.com/Products/Show...+Your+New+Pump

oh.......... you have to send them a brand new pump first at your expense... never mind.
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Old 05-25-2013, 09:55 AM   #3
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i like that HPFP upgrade site, looks like the FSI R fuel pump upgrade is only $500, instead of APR's $1000 or something.

http://hpfpupgrade.com/Products/Show...+Your+New+Pump

oh.......... you have to send them a brand new pump first at your expense... never mind.
Has anyone done this, is it just as reliable as going through APR?
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Old 05-25-2013, 10:47 AM   #4
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Very interesting post! I think many folks are anxiously awaiting someone to actually make the up-graded HPFP and test it, particularly on the 2.0 tsi. I am not shooting for a 9 second car, but it would be great to see!!
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Old 05-25-2013, 11:27 AM   #5
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Very cool. I'm ready to see what happens.


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Old 05-25-2013, 11:02 PM   #6
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Nice writeup!

Though I think the strongest limiting factor keeping our cars from hitting 9's isn't technical feasibility but cost. Not parts cost, either - it's always expensive to build an engine. No, it's the cost of the car. If I know I'm going into a project to rebuild an engine, am I going to buy the $5000 car with a decent body and tons of miles or the $18000 car with great body and hardly any miles? In the end, after a ~$10000 rebuild, I'm paying about $13000 for the quality of the body and interior (which I'll just molest with gauges anyways). See where I'm going? Why would I buy the more expensive car?

butchered by autocorrect
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Old 05-28-2013, 05:24 AM   #7
Toledo R
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Clarification

I just wanted to say that my post simply explains how people can solve the Fueling problem of FSI engines. I never said that Joe Public will sit in front of a computer and do this by themselves. There are many VW Tuning companies which have the means to do this, and then OFFER it to customers.

What is the difference between making CNC Billet Cam covers and doing what I have suggested? Are you familiar with Reverse Engineering Laser 3D Scanning? It is very simple (as I said) to scan a 4 cylinder Cam Carrier, and the TT RS Cam Carrier, and then incorporate the Fuel pump section to the 4 cylinder cam carrier. Then it will be CNC machined automatically, through CAD/ CAM programs. Do you see anything difficult here? Making a Copy of the Variable Vlave Timing cover is even more simple and cheap. If the VW Tuners will offer a CNC TT RS Pump compatible cover for the TFSI engine, do you think people who want more horsepower than is available today will buy it?

If the VW Tuning Industry will ever decide to compete with the Honda's, with 2013 TFSI and TSI tech, can they do it now?
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Old 05-28-2013, 06:31 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toledo R View Post
I just wanted to say that my post simply explains how people can solve the Fueling problem of FSI engines. I never said that Joe Public will sit in front of a computer and do this by themselves. There are many VW Tuning companies which have the means to do this, and then OFFER it to customers.

What is the difference between making CNC Billet Cam covers and doing what I have suggested? Are you familiar with Reverse Engineering Laser 3D Scanning? It is very simple (as I said) to scan a 4 cylinder Cam Carrier, and the TT RS Cam Carrier, and then incorporate the Fuel pump section to the 4 cylinder cam carrier. Then it will be CNC machined automatically, through CAD/ CAM programs. Do you see anything difficult here? Making a Copy of the Variable Vlave Timing cover is even more simple and cheap. If the VW Tuners will offer a CNC TT RS Pump compatible cover for the TFSI engine, do you think people who want more horsepower than is available today will buy it?

If the VW Tuning Industry will ever decide to compete with the Honda's, with 2013 TFSI and TSI tech, can they do it now?
is this also a possible tsi solution?
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Old 05-28-2013, 08:22 AM   #9
Toledo R
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Yes,

It will be more expensive for TSI cars, because you will need to do the Billet Cam Carrier to fit the TT RS pump, but then you can disconnect the Stock TSI HPFP pump, and connect the TT RS one to the Fuel Rail. Before long, it may be possible to control the Electronics to run both pumps, so any engine specification would be possible after that.

Simple response to possible Injector Questions.

When a strong demand will be created for 700+WHP FSI Injectors, someone will fill it. They do not exist now because there is no demand. This is the most fundamental Truth about Tuning:

SPEED COSTS MONEY. HOW FAST DO YOU WANT TO GO?


At a 1400E per injector, BOSCH MOTORSPORT can make any injector you want. How fast do you want to go, and how much do you want to go fast?


For 100 injectors the price goes down to 760E. When the demand will appear, vendors will be able to order in the thousands.

The Vendor who will buy the most BT Injectors, will sell them all, because he will offer the lowest price. It is simple economics.

It goes without saying that Port Injectors would be a lot cheaper, but then it IS NOT AN FSI ENGINE.


Last edited by Toledo R; 05-28-2013 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:45 AM   #10
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Interesting..
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:45 AM   #11
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But how do you get 700whp to the ground with a GTI...
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:25 AM   #12
Toledo R
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The GOLF R does not have traction problems. FWD car owners who want 700WHP, know what to do with it and how to get it on the ground.

Further edit:

I think that it may be possible to fit the TT RS pump mounting bracket on the area of the PCV. Look at the Forge Billet Block off plate and picture the mounting there, with a Billet cam underneath. If this works, then the TSI conversion will be as cheap as the TFSI one.








So, start talking to Forge about this idea.

John
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:49 AM   #13
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you have my attention
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Old 05-28-2013, 01:13 PM   #14
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I been dabin all day what is this













awesome.
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Old 05-28-2013, 01:23 PM   #15
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Wtf is this? Coming on a forum telling a bunch of joe shmoes to 3d scan parts of their motor and CNC a part lol. I'm not really sure what to think of this thread honestly. Really cool information, but not sure who would do anything with it haha. I know I can't.
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Old 05-28-2013, 01:23 PM   #16
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I been dabin all day what is this













awesome.
Gimme a dab bro.
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Old 05-29-2013, 06:49 AM   #17
Toledo R
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Traction control for High WHP FWD Cars

A simple way to control High WHP FWD cars, is to use a State of the Art Can Bus Boost Controller. One is available today, with Can Bus connectivity, which means that the Boost Controller can even take a reference from all safety parameters of the ECU, INCLUDING OEM Knock Sensor Timing Retard.





Here are some features which are available:

KEY FEATURES
OBD CAN BUS Connectivity | Simultaneous 6D Boost Control | A/F Ratio Display | EGT Warning & Limit | Works with Porsche & TFSIs

LATEST FIRMWARE UPDATES
  • NEW: Reading and displaying of engine ECU diagnostic trouble codes when using EURO-OBD connectivity
  • NEW: Lambda warning & limit function that can now be set every 500rpm
  • NEW: Auxilliary output function. Control the activation with min & max limits for rpm, boost, min throttle position & max activation time
  • NEW: Porsche 996t compatibility. Without extra wiring retrieve engine operation parameters via ECU Can Bus
  • NEW: TFSI engines compatibility (Audi/VW/Seat/Skoda). Use all PBC PRO control functiona, plus display knock retard per cylinder
  • IMPROVED: Boost display option in kPa, bar, or psi
  • IMPROVED: EGT display option in deg F
  • IMPROVED: Closed loop boost control enhancement with additional settings for calculation interval & max integral duty limit
  • IMPROVED: presets can be now be easily accessed from the device even when switch inputs are enabled
More information here:


http://www.plex-tuning.com/products/...ost-controller


When you have 6D Boost Control, which includes Throttle, Gear and Road Speed, a FWD car can be dialed to have only as much power as it can put on the ground.


John
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Old 05-29-2013, 11:05 AM   #18
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I have a 3d scanner and cnc mill in my garage, I built it myself
























with legos
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Old 06-05-2013, 05:37 PM   #19
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Quote:
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is this also a possible tsi solution?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toledo R View Post
Yes,

It will be more expensive for TSI cars, because you will need to do the Billet Cam Carrier to fit the TT RS pump
It's actually not a solution at all. The TTRS pump will not work on the US based TSI. It's not necessary on the ROW TSI either. There are better solutions.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:49 PM   #20
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It's actually not a solution at all. The TTRS pump will not work on the US based TSI. It's not necessary on the ROW TSI either. There are better solutions.
Do tell...
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