GOLFMK7
GOLFMK6
GOLFMKV
VW GTI MKVI Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVI Forum / VW GTI Forum - Golfmk6.com



Go Back   VW GTI MKVI Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVI Forum / VW GTI Forum - Golfmk6.com > Technical Topics > GTI 2.0T Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Tunes


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-18-2013, 02:19 PM   #1
Rotaryknight
Formula 3000 Champion
 
Rotaryknight's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 GTi CSG
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: So Cal
Posts: 4,874
FrankenTurbo F23T Review and build thread.

Finally got around to installing my FrankenTurbo F23T. I know there have been a lot of questions surrounding this turbo and I'll use thread for updates on how things are going with my results and build.

8-17-13

Installation: Installation was done at Auto Union Tuning in Huntington Beach. My current APR K04 was removed and F23T installed. The F23T is physically still a K04 on the outside. So installation was just like any other kit from APR to CTS.

Since the FT does not come with an installation kit. I purchased a K04 installation kit from ECS http://www.ecstuning.com/ES2586620/ it came with all necessary OEM hardware. Bolts, gaskets, washers etc.

Also currently the FT does not come with a rear block off plate. They are looking at options to add one but for now I purchased one from IE, http://www.intengineering.com/integr...si-tsi-engines


The silicone elbow the FT sent me from that goes from the turbo to the TOP did not fit...not even close. I had to reuse the one that was on my APR kit. That will be an issue that will have to be looked in to.

Tuning: So the decision was made to test things out and see how the turbo works off of another tune. So a manual boost controller was installed bypassing the N75 to control boost. So boost is set at 18 psi to be safe. Yes it's less boost than the 22 psi that the APR software is set at but with higher flow and more CFM we decided to keep things safe.

Next week will run logs with this set up. APR v2 software F23T 18psi w/ MBC. If logs look safe I'll put the car on the dyno and see how it compares to my previous runs.

Driving: My car did not blow up. Angels did not fly down to guide me in my quest. Strippers did not cry. No CEL were thrown.

Due to the MBC my boost curve is a little different than what I am used to. I can't really compare it to my old set up yet since it's not the turbo itself that is controlling boost and there is now an added variable in the mix. So I can't really talk too much about spool up. I will say it probably hits full boost slightly later maybe 2-300 rpm but I'll really have to look at the dyno results.

So what I will say is that at 18 psi the car feels strong. My butt dyno doesn't feel a loss of power from my APR 22 psi. Higher CFM? More power at lower boost? Again butt dyno.

Random things like my intake is louder, DV is louder (but I'm using the one that came with FT not the one I used to have) and when I release the throttle there is a noise that sounds like a laser gun "beeeeeeeeeeeeewwww" so those things I'll have to check out.

Since installation I've put about 80 miles on the car and I don't feel any big difference in daily driving which is good. What additional lag there may be isn't noticeable. I'll need to look at the random new noises etc but in general everything seems good to go.

8-20-13

Did a lot of logging today. Lots of 3rd gear passes, messing with the MBC as well as the wastegate actuator. Data was sent to FT, I'm not that technical with stuff so I'll post what I know.

Boost: On the APR K04 I was hitting about 22 psi dropping from a 25 psi spike. After some tweaking today we finally got it to about 25 psi till redline dropping from about 28 psi. One run right before that we heard a moment of detonation so we backed it slightly off to those settings. You can still feel the car pulling hard at this boost level it's no where near maxed out.

Side note pegged my 30 psi gauge on an earlier run....scared the crap out of me but before I let off the gas DAMN DID IT FEEL GOOD! Obviously I turned the boost down right after that.

Data logging only reads up to 2500 mbar so no idea how high boost actually got. Gauge I'm using is Omori which are decent but I'm sure there is still a +/- variance of maybe 1-2 psi.

Again this is with a MBC for now just to compare things. Man those things get shaky.

Air flow: So one of the things I noticed about my car is that I always seemed to have low air flow readings. Not sure if it's the tune or my car but with the APR K04 I was only pulling 230ish g/s but was still putting 286 whp.

Today my highest was 242 g/s. Still low from what I've seen other cars but a gain from what I had before. My earlier runs today were at 18 psi my g/s were about where the APR K04 was at 22 psi. Curious what power will be now.

Not sure if there is a bottle neck or maybe the APR tune since it is still the same tune with all my logs, K04 and F23T. Either way with all other variables the same I am showing a gain.

Airflow chart overlay in post below-

Driving: Fun. Almost through a tank of gas already. 6th gear freeway pulls are just like the K04 as far as spool up but butt dyno feels stronger.

OH my DV no longer sounds like a Owl mating call. It sounds angry between shifts now.

TOMORROW I DYNO! Or this morning it's like 2am now. Very curious. I'm hoping for over 300 whp.

8-21-13

Random dyno day.

So here we go. Disclaimer! This isn't a tune this is to see how the turbo would act with APR software.

Most important thing found today. Need to set wastegate actuator. When I have time again will go back to AU and have them check what the WG actuator preload is set at. So much load on the dyno car performed completely different than yesterday.

I brought up the question why isn't the WG set at XX from the get go? Basically since tuners are just getting on with testing there hasn't been XX asked for. As the companies are doing their testing they are finding out what preload works best for them. Once that is determined that is what FT will preload things to. Another reason why you can't just throw the F23T on and expect the n75 to control it using preexisting K04 software. So yay for me being the first to aggressively get this thing running........

So on to the fun stuff. Put the car on the dyno. First run out there pegged my 30 psi boost gauge for most of the run......HOLY SHIT! It was not doing this on the street yesterday on the 3rd gear pulls. But the 4th gear dyno pull will all that load it was nuts. I posted a video below. I mean it is WELL over 30 psi!

Did a lot more pulls with a lot more of my butt clinching as I watched to boost climb. BUT no detonation. Yes ignition pull.

The APR software did not like these pulls and killed power towards redline. An example of one of these runs in in dark blue on today's chart.

So after about 5 runs of mother f'n boost we decided to run just off of wastegate actuator pressure (removed MBC completely). This run the ECU finally let us run a complete pass with out shutting down. Boost hit about 28 psi and dropped to 24 psi. Not the ideal curve since it was just running off of the WG spring and preload. Again preload that will have to be adjusted. This run is represented in pink.

The original APR K04 run is in green.

Below I've posted my dyno graphs showing comparison of these two runs as well as the original APR K04 run. HP, TQ and AR are all shown. As well as video.

Summary: I don't want to do that again...HAHAHAHA. So yes lots of boost on a tune not meant for the turbo. ECU pulling at the end. But it shows there is power to be made once tuned correctly. Preload has to be adjusted to a "happy place" There seems to be enough fuel for a tune.

I did get up to 301 whp and one run got 354 ft/lbs of torque. There is power in there just needs to be controlled.

Did I say I don't want to do that again?

9-5-13

So software is now on but car was left at the shop. Tomorrow going to put the rest of the car back together. Actuator gets turned down to it's lowest level, N75 plugged back in, and slowly things will be increased with the tuning.

Will be doing logs to see what tweaks can be made to the software. Current software on the car is for 93 oct and obviously in Cali we only have 91 oct so things will be modified. Hoping things go well enough to have to car put on the Dyno again tomorrow.

9-11-13

Had to leave the car at AU Tuning since I had work. More revisions were made by Eurodyne to the original 93 octane tune. The took the car back to the dyno and it's posted 307 whp at 25 peak boost. Considering I got 301 whp with the F23T no tune but at a scary 30+++ psi. 307 whp @ 25 is safe and putting more power. Will look at my logs tomorrow and see how the injector duty cycle and air/fuel ratios are. Overall a 21 whp gain and roughly 20 torque.

9-13-13

A new very basic tune was put on the car by a different tuner. No new dyno runs were taken yet. Less progress was done as we thought was going to be. Some new street logs were taken and I will say that the air flow was the highest I've seen on the car to date, but I can not comment on the tune because it is not 100% yet. I'll just say that the car does not drive how it should.

9-16-13

Car was taken to GIAC this morning. Logs and a new file was put on it. Car is staying overnight and will be worked on more tomorrow. Plans are for it to go on the dyno there.

9-18-13

Picked up car from GIAC today. They had the car since Monday, did some changes, put it on their Mustang dyno. I'm not going to post numbers because I want to compare apples to apples. Tomorrow the car will go on the Dyno Dynamics system that all previous runs have been taken on. They did say it makes more whp than their standard K04.

They also mentions spool up was not as fast as the K04 BUT they did say I have a small boost leak somewhere that I'll have to address. That would affect spool up. It's possible it could be my DV. They questioned me about it "that thing makes a ton of noise." It was also mentioned a better top end. So tomorrow the car goes on the lift. DV will be checked, clamps, piping etc. Car will then go on the Dyno again.

Driving: So finally got to get on the car. Some wide street down in that area were perfect. So yes spool up is not as fast/hard. A combo of a different tune and turbo but power is VERY linear. I'm flooring it not really thinking about it and realize I'm already at 100 mph. Power was very smooth. The Dyno graph I saw at GIAC showed how linear and smooth it really was. I know my boost gauge reads a little high by 1-2 psi but in 4th I saw 25 psi on my gauge. Will check logs tomorrow.

Car felt good. But I haven't been really in my car for over a week. Tomorrow will be interesting to see what the results are.

For those of you who care there is a F23T race file. I was told you cannot run it with just W/M. This is for 104 race gas. It is "mean, ugly" I was told potentially another 50 hp gain BUT ON RACE GAS ONLY. I may do some runs on race gas just for shits and giggles. Not sure about tomorrow I'm 3/4 tank. I may pick up a can of gas though to be ready.
__________________
The F23T 401whp E85 commuter - Build Thread

My Feedback

Last edited by Rotaryknight; 09-18-2013 at 10:31 PM.
Rotaryknight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2013, 02:19 PM   #2
Rotaryknight
Formula 3000 Champion
 
Rotaryknight's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 GTi CSG
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: So Cal
Posts: 4,874
APR K04 v2, 91 octane



Air Flow comparison 8/20/13



I've always had weird airflow readings but you can see there is a gain and surprisingly smoother curve.



8-21-13 F23T APR Software v2, MBC @ Holy CRAP psi, 91 octane


Dark Blue is F23T w/ APR software with MBC on and boosting who knows the hell what. Gauge maxed out and VAGCOM can't read over 21.75...

Pink is F23T w/ APR software running off of actuator only at about 28 psi drop to 24 psi

Green is APR K04 w/ APR software.







This is one of the first runs with the car overboosting.
Boost gauge gets pegged....4th gear pull.



This run is with no MBC running of of wastegate only.
You can see boost climb to about 28 psi and drop down near redline. 4th gear pull.

More Graphs





You can really see how the N75 valve helps spool up. Can't wait to have better boost control on the F23T





F23T Eurodyne Tune, 91 octane @ 25 psi peak boost



1-16-14

Finally some tuning.




Final numbers

__________________
The F23T 401whp E85 commuter - Build Thread

My Feedback

Last edited by Rotaryknight; 08-29-2014 at 09:33 PM.
Rotaryknight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2013, 02:53 PM   #3
jerome99
Formula 5000 Driver
 
jerome99's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 GTI
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Little Rock, AR
Posts: 1,997
subd
__________________
2011 GTI Build Thread

K04, Godspeed DP, Godspeed IC, CM FX-350 w/DMFW, H&R Coilovers, Boxter-S BBK,
jerome99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2013, 03:18 PM   #4
SixSpeeder
Formula 5000 Champion
 
SixSpeeder's Avatar
 
Drives: Dat
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Forum, Doe.com
Posts: 2,796
sub
__________________
2015 Camaro SS RS NPP
SixSpeeder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2013, 03:19 PM   #5
XGC75
Formula 1 Driver
 
XGC75's Avatar
 
Drives: into shit
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 9,350
Subbed! Looking forward forward to hearing more impressions. As is, though, 200-300 rpm later than k04 doesn't sound too awesome to me. I thought this had the torque curve of stage 1? (Just bigger )

butchered by autocorrecr
XGC75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2013, 03:25 PM   #6
PRND[S]
Formula 5000 Champion
 
PRND[S]'s Avatar
 
Drives: LSG 2015 Golf R / APR Stage 1
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,180
How much time does the engine spend in that 200-300 RPM band while you're accelerating? It's really not as significant as you think.
PRND[S] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2013, 03:36 PM   #7
mattyICED
FIA GT Newbie
 
mattyICED's Avatar
 
Drives: GTI
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Orlando
Posts: 805
Nice! Can't wait to see your results. Which MBC did you go with?
__________________
ERMAGERD MAHDZ
mattyICED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2013, 03:47 PM   #8
Rotaryknight
Formula 3000 Champion
 
Rotaryknight's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 GTi CSG
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: So Cal
Posts: 4,874
Quote:
Originally Posted by XGC75 View Post
Subbed! Looking forward forward to hearing more impressions. As is, though, 200-300 rpm later than k04 doesn't sound too awesome to me. I thought this had the torque curve of stage 1? (Just bigger )

butchered by autocorrecr
Again this is with a MBC so it behaves differently than it will with a tune using the N75 valve. Just first impressions. Plus 2-300 rpm isn't much and I'm talking about boost not TQ curve. Personally I didn't think it would have the TQ curve of stage one. Once we do logging I'll be able to post numbers instead of butt dyno results.

Looking to possible Tuesday having time to do logs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRND[S] View Post
How much time does the engine spend in that 200-300 RPM band while you're accelerating? It's really not as significant as you think.
Exactly. People here have no idea what turbo lag really is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattyICED View Post
Nice! Can't wait to see your results. Which MBC did you go with?
It's a temporary bandaid for logging. They had it laying around the shop and put it on. I won't be relying on a MBC once a tune is put in. It's just to see how the turbo reacts with the APR software. Since the wastegate spring is different from what the APR software is used to controlling a MBC was the only way to set boost levels. If I had to rely on a BC I'd opt for a EBC anyways. I still feel EBC like HKS EVC held the wastegate closed better till full boost with no spikes.
__________________
The F23T 401whp E85 commuter - Build Thread

My Feedback

Last edited by Rotaryknight; 08-18-2013 at 03:58 PM.
Rotaryknight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2013, 04:10 PM   #9
trd420
Formula 5000 Champion
 
trd420's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 S3 Prestige+Performance Pack
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: SF Bay Area / Houston Tx.
Posts: 2,942
Sub!!
__________________
Now 2015 Audi S3 Prestige + Performance package, DTUK & K&N drop in. Running E-85 blend
Had 2011 MK6 GTI Unitronic Stage 2+ (K04)
Had 1989 MK2 GTI VR-6 Swap
trd420 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2013, 04:15 PM   #10
dubbinit2
Formula 3000 Driver
 
dubbinit2's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Buick Regal GS...Trifecta tune
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Carcosa
Posts: 3,970
Following.
__________________
"I am Jack's raging bile duct"
dubbinit2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2013, 04:35 PM   #11
SetInMotion
Autocross Newbie
 
SetInMotion's Avatar
 
Drives: '09 GTI DSG
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 77
Subbed. Interested to see how this stacks up against a K04.
__________________
2009 BMP GTI 4DR w/ DSG and Leather
Neuspeed P-flo | Podi Boost Gauge | Wolfsburg Grille | R-Line Lower Grilles | Yellow Fogs | Bronze Nurb's | Michelin PSS | H&R Sport Cup Kit | Neuspeed TBP | 3" 42DD Turboback | APR Intercooler | CTS K04 | Uni Stage 2+
SetInMotion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2013, 07:21 PM   #12
kern417
Formula 2 Driver
 
Drives: '09 Jetta
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,672
in.
__________________
do a burnout.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGTI13 View Post
If you already have an intake, might as well just go big turbo while you're in the engine bay. Just my 2 cents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erball View Post
It's only then when I realize, in a moment of clarity, I should have bought Honda.
kern417 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2013, 10:30 PM   #13
mfractal
FIA World Rally Car Newbie
 
Drives: A3 8P Sportback 2.0T
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Brazil
Posts: 435
Subscribed.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 4
__________________
Audi A3 Sportback 2010 2.0T DSG
CTS K04 @ GIAC HO + Intake + Boost pipes, APR DP + IC, Milltek Res Catback, Whiteline WALK & PU bushings, KW Street Comfort
mfractal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2013, 11:53 PM   #14
Mr.Lewis
FIA World Rally Car Newbie
 
Drives: SB Autobahn GTI, PDK cayman S '14
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: So Cal
Posts: 476
subscribed as im looking to do the frankenturbo
__________________

2013 Shadow Blue 4dr Autobahn
| Uni Stage 1 | OEM LED tails | R8 Coilpacks | VMR V702
Mr.Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.