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Proper Dyno Testing

HYDE161

Go Kart Champion
Can anyone school me on which dyno should be used for establishing real world HP numbers?

Any tips or tricks for better, more realistic numbers?

My main goal is to test several future products (before and after) to show the gain or loss in HP.

I have a local shop with a Mainline AWD 1800 chassis dynamometer.

 

drepai

Go Kart Champion
Good read from LS1tech:

Now we go to Mustang dyno’s and other loaded dyno’s. Our Mustang MD-1100SE dyno’s rollers weigh 2560lbs. That is the actual mass of the rollers, much like the DynoJet. That’s about where all the similarities end. When we get a car on our dyno, we enter two constants for the dyno’s algorithms. One being the vehicle weight, the other being what’s called “Horsepower At 50mph”. This is a number that represents how much horsepower it takes for the vehicle to push the air to maintain 50mph. This is used as the aerodynamic force. Mustang dyno’s are also equipped with a eddy currant load cell. Think of a magnetic brake from a freight train. This magnetic brake can apply enough resistance to stall a big rig. Off one side of the eddy currant load cell, there is a cantilever with a 5volt reference load sensor (strain gage). As the rollers are spinning this load sensor is measuring the actual torque being applied. So as the rollers spin, the load sensor is measuring the force being applied, sending that information to the dyno computer, taking into account the two constants entered earlier, computing the amount of resistance needed to be applied to the rollers to load the car so that the force of the rollers resistance is as close to the force the car sees on the street. The dyno is then able to calculate the total force being applied to the rollers in torque, and then taking the derivative of that torque curve to arrive at the horsepower curve. Since torque is an actual force of nature, like gravity and electricity, it can be directly measured. Horsepower is an idea that was thought up by man, and cannot be directly measured, only calculated.

I like to state it like this. . . I start by asking how much your car weighs, lets say 3500lbs. Now you take your car and you make a make a WOT rip in your tallest non overdrive gear, how much mass is your engine working against? 3500lbs right? Now you strap your car on a DynoJet and you make a WOT in the same gear, how much mass is your engine working against? 2500lbs right? Now you strap your car on a Mustang dyno, how much mass is your engine working against? 2500lbs. Plus the resistance being applied by the eddy current generator. We’ve seen anywhere for 470lbs of resistance to over 700lbs of resistance as measured in PAU force in the data logs. So which one is more accurate? Well they their both accurate. If a DynoJet dyno says you made 460rwhp, then you made 460rwhp. If a Mustang dyno says you made 460rwhp, you also made 460rwhp. Now which one of those numbers best represents what your car is doing when its on the street. That’s a different question.

The most important thing to remember is that a dyno is a testing tool. If the numbers keep increasing, then you’re doing the right thing. We try to look over at NET gain, instead of Peak HP numbers. A 30rwhp increase is a 30rwhp increase regardless of what dyno it is on.


Now I can address how to calculate the difference between one type of dyno and another. Simply put, you can’t. Because Mustang dyno’s have so many more variables, it’s not a simple percentage difference. We’ve had cars that made 422rwhp on our Dyno, two days later make 458rwhp on a DynoJet the next day. We’ve also had cars that made 550rwhp on our dyno, make 650+rwhp on a DynoJet a few days later at another shops Dyno Day. For instance, my 2002 Z28 with a forged internal LS6 Heads/Cam/Intake, makes 460rwhp on our dyno. I thought that was a little low, since I’ve had cam only LS6 Z06 vettes make 450rwhp. So I overlaid the dyno graphs. Guess what, the PAU force for my car was almost 200lbs more than the C5Z06 that made 450rwhp with cam only. So I entered the weight and horsepower at 50 number for a C5Z06 and did another horsepower rip with my car. The only reason I did that was to compare Apples to Apples. This time my car made 490rwhp, no other changes. Now I don’t go around saying my car made 490rwhp, I say what it actually did with the correct information entered into the computer. It made 460rwhp. Now if I ever get a chance to take it on a DynoJet (which I plan to in the spring), I have no doubts it’ll be over 500rwhp. I know this based on airflow and fuel consumption on the data logs.

But since we’re asked this question constantly we're fairly conservative, and hence tell our customers that the difference is closer to 6-7%, but as you make more power, and the more your car weighs, the difference increases as well. You must remember, Dyno's regardless of the type are tuning tools, and are in no means meant to tell people how fast their car is. Now which one is more "real world" is a totally different question. I like to explain it like this..... If you drive your car in a situation in which you have no mass and you're in a vacuum, so basically if you do intergalactic racing in space, use a DynoJet. If your car sees gravity, and has an aerodynamic coefficient, and you race on a planet called Earth, then use a Mustang Dyno
 

HYDE161

Go Kart Champion
No dyno is specifically more accurate for "real world numbers"

The best thing you can do is use the same dyno all the time. It doesn't matter which reads higher, lower, better, or worse. As long as you have the consistency of the same dyno so you can see your gains accurately is what matters.

With that said I am not familiar with that Mainline brand dyno. My concern would be that it looks like there is no physical link between the front and rear. That can be an issue on the Golf R as it is not a full mechanical link in the awd system. Due to this they need to be run at the same speeds or the haldex can be damaged. I would check into that before running on that dyno.

Thank you Tom. Would this be ok with a FWD GTI? Are there any preferred dyno models that I should seek out?
 

REIGNSPEED

Ready to race!
Dynapack with their hub dynapacks has largely been trusted as being the "most accurate". There are certainly more tuning and installation shops using mustang dynos, being as they are more user friendly and a little less expensive - Mustang and similar dynos are recommended over a dynojet for example or similar non load-cell dynos.
 

FLtrooper

Go Kart Champion
They all read different and it's inaccurate to compare results from the same brand/model in different locations.

I prefer dyno jets because it's the more commonly used dyno and typically easier and cheaper to get on in my location. I have noticed lately that the dyno jet pick ups don't work to well for my GLI which can be frustrating when trying to get a clean pass.

Use the cheapest/closest dyno to compare your vehicle but unless someone else is on the same dyno it's not accurate to compare results.

See if some other local K04's can meet to compare results or when making changes just use the same dyno.

Hoping to see some nice results of the HPA combo!

:)
 

TheMKVI

Go Kart Champion
I haven't seen anyone mention correction factors. Just to add to the confusion, on a dynojet there is a standard and SAE correction factor, to compare more accurately between slightly different weather conditions you want to use SAE. SAE will also read a bit lower than standard.
 

HYDE161

Go Kart Champion
So my appointment is tomorrow at 11:30 and I want to set a great baseline number with the APR K04 then head back to prove/disprove gains after I install the HPA manifold.

-The dyno will be a Mainline AWD 1800 chassis dynamometer
-Check if their machine allows for SAE correction factors
-Should I reset fuel trims right before the runs?
 

TheMKVI

Go Kart Champion
So my appointment is tomorrow at 11:30 and I want to set a great baseline number with the APR K04 then head back to prove/disprove gains after I install the HPA manifold.

-The dyno will be a Mainline AWD 1800 chassis dynamometer
-Check if their machine allows for SAE correction factors
-Should I reset fuel trims right before the runs?

Ideally you would want to drive around with and without the manifold before dynoing each time to let the ECU adapt.
 

Lucas_R

Passed Driver's Ed
Mainline are an Australian brand of dyno's and used extensively here (im in Australia). I've run my Golf R on 2x different Mainline dyno's and had no issues what so ever.

Make sure they set the torque reading to "derived torque" (or "dtorque" as shown on the printout) to get a realistic number, otherwise you will end up with a super inflated torque number.

Make sure the operator uses a decent ramp rate (like 10kph (6mph) per second)

See the first page of my thread here for an example of a Mainline printout: http://www.vwgolf.net.au/showthread.php?7051

This layout gives you kilowatts (we generally don't use horsepower here), torque (we use newton meters), boost pressure (signal from boost tap on inlet manifold) and lambda (a/f ratio).

And plenty of other Mainline printouts here if you are interested: http://www.vwgolf.net.au/showthread.php?9440-The-Official-VWGolf.Net-Dyno-Power-Chart
 
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HYDE161

Go Kart Champion
Ideally you would want to drive around with and without the manifold before dynoing each time to let the ECU adapt.

I reset fuel trims this morning since it was a bit warmer. I've driven a lot today and will tomorrow.

Mainline are an Australian brand of dyno's and used extensively here (im in Australia). I've run my Golf R on 2x different Mainline dyno's and had no issues what so ever.

Make sure they set the torque reading to "derived torque" (or "dtorque" as shown on the printout) to get a realistic number, otherwise you will end up with a super inflated torque number.

Make sure the operator uses a decent ramp rate (like 10kph (6mph) per second)

See the first page of my thread here for an example of a Mainline printout: http://www.vwgolf.net.au/showthread.php?7051

This layout gives you kilowatts (we generally don't use horsepower here), torque (we use newton meters), boost pressure (signal from boost tap on inlet manifold) and lambda (a/f ratio).

And plenty of other Mainline printouts here if you are interested: http://www.vwgolf.net.au/showthread.php?9440-The-Official-VWGolf.Net-Dyno-Power-Chart

This is EPIC! Thank you so much for the dyno specific tips!
 

Lucas_R

Passed Driver's Ed
This is EPIC! Thank you so much for the dyno specific tips!

No problem - i like to read your reviews, so glad i was able to help you out in return. Mainline are a very high quality and well regarded dyno here in Australia. Hopefully the operator knows what he is doing and can set it up correctly to give you realistic figures.

The Mainline dyno's do generally real lower (more realistic) than US branded dyno's (like Mustang etc). Lots of US spec Golf R's make 310-320hp on US dyno's, but here in Australia (with better fuel at at sea level) we make about 290hp max on Golf R's. My car is a little lower, around 280hp, as i have asked my tuner for slightly lower boost than normal to preserve my stock clutch.

Here in Australia, most Mk6's with a K04 get around 215-225kw at the wheels which is around 290-300hp. These are generally GIAC, APR or a custom tune and the results vary bit by bit depending on the tune, and condition of the car.

I cant remember if your car is DSG or manual? If DSG, do you know how to keep the car in 4th gear for the dyno run, without having to worry about kick down or changing up etc? Put the car into sport mode, and use the paddles to shift from 1st into 2nd and into 3rd. When you shift into 4th leave your finger on the paddle (with pressure applied - dont release it). This will hold 4th and wont allow a down shift.

A couple of examples of K04 results for you:

http://www.vwgolf.net.au/showthread...no-Power-Chart&p=375470&viewfull=1#post375470 (this is on a Dyno Dynamics dyno)

http://www.vwgolf.net.au/showthread...no-Power-Chart&p=375405&viewfull=1#post375405 (Mainline Dyno - red car 280.2hp, white car 289.5hp)

http://www.vwgolf.net.au/showthread...no-Power-Chart&p=333076&viewfull=1#post333076 Dyno Dynamics dyno - 235kw = 315hp. This one is the most powerful one to date)
 
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HYDE161

Go Kart Champion
No problem - i like to read your reviews, so glad i was able to help you out in return. Mainline are a very high quality and well regarded dyno here in Australia. Hopefully the operator knows what he is doing and can set it up correctly to give you realistic figures.

Here in Australia, most Mk6's with a K04 get around 215-225kw at the wheels which is around 290-300hp. These are generally GIAC, APR or a custom tune and the results vary bit by bit depending on the tune, and condition of the car.

I cant remember if your car is DSG or manual? If DSG, do you know how to keep the car in 4th gear for the dyno run, without having to worry about kick down or changing up etc?

6-speed manual here, any other tips? I'll start getting nervous if they run it past 6,500 rpm.
 

FLtrooper

Go Kart Champion
So my appointment is tomorrow at 11:30 and I want to set a great baseline number with the APR K04 then head back to prove/disprove gains after I install the HPA manifold.

-The dyno will be a Mainline AWD 1800 chassis dynamometer
-Check if their machine allows for SAE correction factors
-Should I reset fuel trims right before the runs?

Awesome..

Don't sweat resetting the trims, run it like you always do!

:thumbup:
 
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Lucas_R

Passed Driver's Ed
6-speed manual here, any other tips? I'll start getting nervous if they run it past 6,500 rpm.

I've edited my previous post in the last 15 mins - so just check that in case there is something else that might be handy to know.

Thank god you have the manual gearbox - it's the only gearbox they should allow you to buy. DSG is so boring.

The dyno operator will generally run the car until redline/cut out, but the k04 is over and done with by about 6,200rpm anyway......although you have ported/hi flowed yours havent you....you might have some more RPM to play with.

Also, regarding correction factors, you can see from the links i provided what they use in Australia (SAE J607), not sure if this same factor applies in the US (and depends on location in regards to sea level etc) though. I live on the coast (at sea level or with a few metres of it).
 
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Lucas_R

Passed Driver's Ed
Oh - if you have a valved exhaust (i don't think the GTI's do from memory - but can be an issue on the Golf R's) make sure they put the a/f ratio probe up the left hand side (your drivers side) pipe which is always open for a more realistic reading.

Not sure if the valved exhaust applies to the GTI's, so apologies if im talking jibberish.
 
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