Cclark6146
Go Kart Newbie
had the guys over at urotuning do some digging and they were able to find me some available and already have them. waiting to get some time so I can put them on.
6
Official Sway Bar Discussion Thread
- Thread starter the bruce
- Start date
postbox
New member
Tried 034 rear sway bar on the home canyon drive and took it right off once I came back.
During those (fairly miserable) two hours of driving I saw more ESP blinking light then over the previous seven years of car's ownership.
Couldn't take a single turn in a mid-spirited manner I'm used to. Basically I had to go way slower to avoid ESP cutting off the power.
I guess I could turn ESP off, but what's the point of loosing rear where it was totally stable with the OEM setup? Won't make me go any faster.
Sent it back to 034 for the store credit (wish they had cash refund option).
IMO it doesn't work with the stock suspension or/and without the stiffer front bar (which they keep saying is not needed - go figure).
I was running "soft" setting - furthermost hole on the swaybar arm.
It's not a surprise honestly - OEM swaybar on US MK6 GTI is 21.7x3mm hollow while 034 one is a solid 25.4mm. I think that's about two times stiffer all other things being equal.
During those (fairly miserable) two hours of driving I saw more ESP blinking light then over the previous seven years of car's ownership.
Couldn't take a single turn in a mid-spirited manner I'm used to. Basically I had to go way slower to avoid ESP cutting off the power.
I guess I could turn ESP off, but what's the point of loosing rear where it was totally stable with the OEM setup? Won't make me go any faster.
Sent it back to 034 for the store credit (wish they had cash refund option).
IMO it doesn't work with the stock suspension or/and without the stiffer front bar (which they keep saying is not needed - go figure).
I was running "soft" setting - furthermost hole on the swaybar arm.
It's not a surprise honestly - OEM swaybar on US MK6 GTI is 21.7x3mm hollow while 034 one is a solid 25.4mm. I think that's about two times stiffer all other things being equal.
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1ashchuckton
Autocross Champion
That is very interesting. My experience is 180 degrees from yours. I put a SPM 23mm rear sway bar on mine & set it on the stiffest setting. It was the best thing I've done to my car. Love the handling, I don't see the ESP light. No nanny intervention what so ever.
You did the right thing to take it off if you were having problems. I'm wondering if there is another issue that the sway bar exacerbated.
You did the right thing to take it off if you were having problems. I'm wondering if there is another issue that the sway bar exacerbated.
theclutch
Go Kart Newbie
Tried 034 rear sway bar on the home canyon drive and took it right off once I came back.
During those (fairly miserable) two hours of driving I saw more ESP blinking light then over the previous seven years of car's ownership.
Couldn't take a single turn in a mid-spirited manner I'm used to. Basically I had to go way slower to avoid ESP cutting off the power.
I guess I could turn ESP off, but what's the point of loosing rear where it was totally stable with the OEM setup? Won't make me go any faster.
Sent it back to 034 for the store credit (wish they had cash refund option).
IMO it doesn't work with the stock suspension or/and without the stiffer front bar (which they keep saying is not needed - go figure).
I was running "soft" setting - furthermost hole on the swaybar arm.
It's not a surprise honestly - OEM swaybar on US MK6 GTI is 21.7x3mm hollow while 034 one is a solid 25.4mm. I think that's about two times stiffer all other things being equal.
There is no way in hell that your ESP issues are attributable to the rear sway bar only. I've been modifying suspensions on my and my friend's cars for 30+ years and this is seriously the worst part blaming I've read in a long while. The rest of your suspension (old? modified? worn?) needs to be looked at AND, most importantly, I hope you don't have the cheapest tires imaginable on your car (not that you'd admit it at this point).
postbox
New member
@1ashchuckton, 23mm (+1.3mm) bar would be about 25-35% (if it is solid) stiffer than the OEM 21.7mm. Stiffness of the bar is proportional to the diameter in forth power. I can see 25% stiffer swaybar working.
If you've also swapped the front bar - that would be a totally different story. Because stiffness distribution/ratio between the front and rear bars matters the most.
@theclutch, thanks for the warm welcome and being judgemental, I appreciate it. It certainly helps to have an open and fruitful discussion.
That aside, I'm puzzled myself due to the overwhelming number of positive reviews about that same swaybar. And I do trust 034 as a tuning company in general.
On other hand I saw youtube reviews prizing the bar of making the car handling and ride quality better while driving straight or almost straight (on the highway).
I doubt installation was an issue since there are no two ways to get the rear swaybar installed on our cars. My car setup is completely stock in suspension department and in a good shape. Tires were one year old PS4S and they were not swapped for the 034 swaybar test.
I probably had to turn ESP off in a safe environment to confirm that the rear will indeed step out on fairly trivial turns rather than it being ESP glitch or anything. It certainly did feel that the rear got overly loose. It was indeed night and day difference.
If you've also swapped the front bar - that would be a totally different story. Because stiffness distribution/ratio between the front and rear bars matters the most.
@theclutch, thanks for the warm welcome and being judgemental, I appreciate it. It certainly helps to have an open and fruitful discussion.
That aside, I'm puzzled myself due to the overwhelming number of positive reviews about that same swaybar. And I do trust 034 as a tuning company in general.
On other hand I saw youtube reviews prizing the bar of making the car handling and ride quality better while driving straight or almost straight (on the highway).
I doubt installation was an issue since there are no two ways to get the rear swaybar installed on our cars. My car setup is completely stock in suspension department and in a good shape. Tires were one year old PS4S and they were not swapped for the 034 swaybar test.
I probably had to turn ESP off in a safe environment to confirm that the rear will indeed step out on fairly trivial turns rather than it being ESP glitch or anything. It certainly did feel that the rear got overly loose. It was indeed night and day difference.
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theclutch
Go Kart Newbie
@1ashchuckton, 23mm (+1.3mm) bar would be about 25-35% (if it is solid) stiffer than the OEM 21.7mm. Stiffness of the bar is proportional to the diameter in forth power. I can see 25% stiffer swaybar working.
If you've also swapped the front bar - that would be a totally different story. Because stiffness distribution/ratio between the front and rear bars matters the most.
@theclutch, thanks for the warm welcome and being judgemental, I appreciate it. It certainly helps to have an open and fruitful discussion.
That aside, I'm puzzled myself due to the overwhelming number of positive reviews about that same swaybar. And I do trust 034 as a tuning company in general.
On other hand I saw youtube reviews prizing the bar of making the car handling and ride quality better while driving straight or almost straight (on the highway).
I doubt installation was an issue since there are no two ways to get the rear swaybar installed on our cars. My car setup is completely stock in suspension department and in a good shape. Tires were one year old PS4S and they were not swapped for the 034 swaybar test.
I probably had to turn ESP off in a safe environment to confirm that the rear will indeed step out on fairly trivial turns rather than it being ESP glitch or anything. It certainly did feel that the rear got overly loose. It was indeed night and day difference.
Let me tell ya... I've gotten to be more and more judgmental (any cynical) in my old age....it sucks!
Having said that, I've run even thicker bars than the 034 (keeping front stock sway bar) and it still wouldn't rotate as much as I wanted it to. It definitely got rid of the understeer, but I wanted more. If your car suspension is indeed 100% stock including ride height and you are running PS4's, then the culprit is likely in your alignment. You likely have a toe-out situation in your rears or a worn-out bushing that causes toe-out while under load.
postbox
New member
Thanks, @theclutch, for helping me to identify the potential culprit (no sarcasm). As mentioned above - I'm a bit puzzled over it myself.
My local dealer has $79 special for the alignment and I do it about two times a year. And every time after touching anything in suspension (sway bar swap does not count since it should not affect the alignment).
Up to this day it was plain stock alignment setup. I just finished fitting Ground Control camber plates and will be running somewhere around -2.5 camber on the front and -1.75 on the rear.
Ordered my rear control arms from 034 btw.
I never felt (or suffered from) the "excessively understeery" nature of the car - it feels very neutral on the track (esp high speed corners) and turns in pretty well with trail-braking into slow and mid-speed corners. It rotates amazingly well and consistently under trail braking (works especially well for certain corners).
Granted - I never owned a performance rear wheel drive car before owning this GTI for 7+ years.
Hence I might have learned what to consider "normal" based on the OEM GTI handling itself.
For me fitting the stiffer sway bar on the rear was more of an experiment due to such a ubiquitous public acclaim.
It didn't work out.
I might try another 25-45% stiffer rear bar some time later to feel the difference in less pronounced and more nuanced way.
My local dealer has $79 special for the alignment and I do it about two times a year. And every time after touching anything in suspension (sway bar swap does not count since it should not affect the alignment).
Up to this day it was plain stock alignment setup. I just finished fitting Ground Control camber plates and will be running somewhere around -2.5 camber on the front and -1.75 on the rear.
Ordered my rear control arms from 034 btw.
I never felt (or suffered from) the "excessively understeery" nature of the car - it feels very neutral on the track (esp high speed corners) and turns in pretty well with trail-braking into slow and mid-speed corners. It rotates amazingly well and consistently under trail braking (works especially well for certain corners).
Granted - I never owned a performance rear wheel drive car before owning this GTI for 7+ years.
Hence I might have learned what to consider "normal" based on the OEM GTI handling itself.
For me fitting the stiffer sway bar on the rear was more of an experiment due to such a ubiquitous public acclaim.
It didn't work out.
I might try another 25-45% stiffer rear bar some time later to feel the difference in less pronounced and more nuanced way.
ChrisAttebery
Drag Racing Champion
I went from an H7R 22mm to the 034 bar to a 24mm H&R. After that I added the H&R 26mm FSB. That made a huge difference.
FWIW: The 034 bar is something like +125% on soft and +176% on hard compared to the stock bar.
FWIW: The 034 bar is something like +125% on soft and +176% on hard compared to the stock bar.
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1ashchuckton
Autocross Champion
postbox
New member
Going for the exact same setup as yours: 26mm front H&R and 24mm rear with 034 adjustable swaybar links.
Doing that not because I need to (love the balance of the factory as I already said) but because my tranny is out and I seem to have an easy access to the front sway bar.
Also should come handy if/when I finally pull the trigger on R&T Ohlins with softer springs (thinking about 50Nm/mm, 70 from the factory).
Way I see it…my 2 cents
Choosing a rear sway bar ONLY (keeping stock front) (MK5/6/7) This will not apply to the same degree as any other car/model. The overall consensus is you’re making the car corner “flatter” “tighter” “planted” but with the below added outcomes. Upto you to decide what you like that to be.
22-23mm: Rear sway bars of this thickness offer a mild change over stock. The car changes from modest understeer to a more neutral position. For those who may be just learning, or spend more time at in the canyons, this can be a great option for improvement while maintaining predictability. (Especially for more aggressive driving hands and feet)
24-25mm: At this size, the change should be relatively significant in overall handling. The car will likely be neutral under power, but begin to exhibit substantial “playful” characteristics. For example, lift-off oversteer generally becomes noticeable in this range. Meaning, lifting off the gas mid-corner should cause the rear end to rotate almost immediately. However, the effects aren’t so drastic that it makes the car unpredictable. (Middle ground between requiring some finesse and aggressive driving hands and feet)
26mm+: Bars of this thickness are pretty aggressive. The car will have strong lift-off oversteer behavior, but will power out of corners significantly better. These bars are generally recommended for those looking to autocross, do more heavy-duty track work, or other suspension mods that make this aggressive option make sense. (Requires finesse and precision driving to avoid negatives)
Adding front sway bar
Now adding a front sway bar - size as per above alongside will start reversing the behaviour / outcome (but further increase the “flatter” “tighter” “planted” cornering.
But note the following:
- Potential to decrease traction (depending on what other mods you currently have or are thinking about adding or even willing to add £££) Go to far on the front and you will be seeking a mechanical LSD (and other mods) - already have one installed? then that’s ok but again to a point dependant on tyres, road condition and power you are pushing.
- Potential to increase harshness (depending on road conditions used on and in what manner of driving) Once again there are things you can use to try alleviate or mitigate this £££)
Final thoughts:
What I have seen and learned myself - balance is key - carefully balancing each and every modification is absolute key!
Everything you mod, needs to work WITH each other as a team. When you take one mod TOO FAR, you will spend more unessasarily trying to mitigate / overcome the negative outcome of that mod. So best look at each and every aspect top to bottom (spring height/rate with strut height/rebound etc with sway bar with top mounts / camber / toe / ALK and the list goes on and on. Fully understand what each gives or takes away (depending how far you take each) as you will find doing midway of one mod gives you some positives for the other - going less aggressive on the one you can go less aggressive on the other (if you gain on the other end of the car or parts)
Tired long day hope that even makes any sense
Take your time and enjoy !
Choosing a rear sway bar ONLY (keeping stock front) (MK5/6/7) This will not apply to the same degree as any other car/model. The overall consensus is you’re making the car corner “flatter” “tighter” “planted” but with the below added outcomes. Upto you to decide what you like that to be.
22-23mm: Rear sway bars of this thickness offer a mild change over stock. The car changes from modest understeer to a more neutral position. For those who may be just learning, or spend more time at in the canyons, this can be a great option for improvement while maintaining predictability. (Especially for more aggressive driving hands and feet)
24-25mm: At this size, the change should be relatively significant in overall handling. The car will likely be neutral under power, but begin to exhibit substantial “playful” characteristics. For example, lift-off oversteer generally becomes noticeable in this range. Meaning, lifting off the gas mid-corner should cause the rear end to rotate almost immediately. However, the effects aren’t so drastic that it makes the car unpredictable. (Middle ground between requiring some finesse and aggressive driving hands and feet)
26mm+: Bars of this thickness are pretty aggressive. The car will have strong lift-off oversteer behavior, but will power out of corners significantly better. These bars are generally recommended for those looking to autocross, do more heavy-duty track work, or other suspension mods that make this aggressive option make sense. (Requires finesse and precision driving to avoid negatives)
Adding front sway bar
Now adding a front sway bar - size as per above alongside will start reversing the behaviour / outcome (but further increase the “flatter” “tighter” “planted” cornering.
But note the following:
- Potential to decrease traction (depending on what other mods you currently have or are thinking about adding or even willing to add £££) Go to far on the front and you will be seeking a mechanical LSD (and other mods) - already have one installed? then that’s ok but again to a point dependant on tyres, road condition and power you are pushing.
- Potential to increase harshness (depending on road conditions used on and in what manner of driving) Once again there are things you can use to try alleviate or mitigate this £££)
Final thoughts:
What I have seen and learned myself - balance is key - carefully balancing each and every modification is absolute key!
Everything you mod, needs to work WITH each other as a team. When you take one mod TOO FAR, you will spend more unessasarily trying to mitigate / overcome the negative outcome of that mod. So best look at each and every aspect top to bottom (spring height/rate with strut height/rebound etc with sway bar with top mounts / camber / toe / ALK and the list goes on and on. Fully understand what each gives or takes away (depending how far you take each) as you will find doing midway of one mod gives you some positives for the other - going less aggressive on the one you can go less aggressive on the other (if you gain on the other end of the car or parts)
Tired long day hope that even makes any sense
Take your time and enjoy !
95tequesta
Passed Driver's Ed
I 100% agree! I have H&R front and rear, F/26 (set to soft) and R/24 (set to firmest). This set up is amazing for spirited/agressive daily driving with no ill habits, just feels more planted. However, after doing a few Motorcross events and talking to some experienced drivers who had better lap times than the corvettes and mustangs. They were only changing out the rear bar. Of course alot of that is driver experience throwing your car around. If I were tracking it more I would probably change the front one to something more stock.Final thoughts:
What I have seen and learned myself - balance is key - carefully balancing each and every modification is absolute key!
Everything you mod, needs to work WITH each other as a team. When you take one mod TOO FAR, you will spend more unessasarily trying to mitigate / overcome the negative outcome of that mod. So best look at each and every aspect top to bottom (spring height/rate with strut height/rebound etc with sway bar with top mounts / camber / toe / ALK and the list goes on and on. Fully understand what each gives or takes away (depending how far you take each) as you will find doing midway of one mod gives you some positives for the other - going less aggressive on the one you can go less aggressive on the other (if you gain on the other end of the car or parts)
Tired long day hope that even makes any sense
Take your time and enjoy !
