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Discussing LSPI (Low Speed Pre Ignition)

Crud_muffin

Ready to race!
Location
US
Car(s)
e-Golf
Jason from from Engineering Explained has helped bring to light a condition in our turbocharged engines, tuned or not. You'll want to see his video and supplemental links below.

Basically, in modern engines like ours - small displacement, turbocharged, direct injection - there's a phenomena when the engine cycles for a duration in a lower RPM, high load situation (i.e., initial WOT on the highway) that produces engine knock/ping. (Note: Yes, this is the kind that breaks spark plugs and pistons, but is not turbo flutter from proper diverter/wastegate operation that you can volume down with soundaktor settings). Here's the kicker - normal downshift isn't enough, and it's not overcome with higher octane or tuning spark/timing advance. The reason being is there is an agent present in the cylinders that, under the right pressure conditions, becomes like a piece of BBQ charcoal, for lack of better words, that ignites what's left from ordinary fuel trim cycles in the cylinder before the proper time. Again, it's a unique condition; please don't feel guilty if it's happened to you when you felt you were driving normally.

Here's a video clip illustrating the ignition issue courtesy of Afton Chemical:
https://youtu.be/7L5XLPN_G3Q

Although using DSG 'D' automatic mode to downshift isn't always sufficient to raise the RPM's high enough to cycle outside the dangerous range, using DSG 'Sport' mode generally will. And for you MT folks, the engine's fate is in the palm of your hands (and clutch foot). When this topic has been brought up in MK7 threads, people have used 3k RPM as a safe mark. Simply being mindful of spending time in high gears with high load is all it takes. Also, the new oil specification, ILSAC GF-6, has tested vehicle makes across the board with this pre ignition phenomena in mind. The new oil is in the final stages of approval and anticipated to be on shelves April, 2018 - maybe the same time your oil change will be due anyway ;)

Here's Jason's video:
https://youtu.be/soJea7xEt-8

Here's a Chevron site dedicated to the issue:
https://www.oronite.com/products/lspi.asp

Here's the official oil standard site:
http://www.gf-6.com
 
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Oldschoolmk7

Go Kart Champion
Location
Yonder
Yep. High load at low rpm is bad on any gas engine. This is just exacerbated with quick spool low rpm turbo. It (lugging high gear WOT) is hard on both stock OEM clutches and engine parts. Had too...
 

Deviation01

Go Kart Champion
Location
St. Louis
So drive DSG in sport constantly!!?
 

Crud_muffin

Ready to race!
Location
US
Car(s)
e-Golf
Other interesting facts about super-knock, LSPI:

"It was observed that the engine oil degradation increased the LSPI frequency." - SAE Technical Paper, 2013-01-2569.

"Calcium, which is used to ensure detergency and anti-rust performance, is reported to increase LSPI events." - SAE Technical Paper, 2015-01-2027

I take this to mean that running just any motor oil is potentially dangerous with these cars, and dangerous to stretch maintenance intervals. After digging around a little, I found that Castrol Edge synthetic is in the 700's range for Calcium, which is quite low in comparison to other popular oil choices, and also good in that it appears to be the same VW OE fill.
 

GTI787

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Ft. Lauderdale
Car(s)
2016 GTI
Well then good thing I always drive my dsg in manual mode and always downshift to be in the 3500 rpm range or above before going wot.
 

Crud_muffin

Ready to race!
Location
US
Car(s)
e-Golf
About a month ago StatifiedAuto on YouTube put out this video giving a great explanation of pre-ignition VS detonation (huge difference). The important part: LSPI is far more damaging than traditional knock and may go undetected by a knock sensor. I was a little taken back by their statement so here are their direct words:

"Pre-ignition, if it starts early enough, it's undetectable by knock sensors, unfortunately. An engine will survive with knock of detonation and will lower timing and so-forth to deal with that but an engine will not survive a pre-ignition."
Also, the video notes say: "Very pertinent to...VW GTI."
- 2:47, https://youtu.be/T7FMnwBAIJM

If you're hearing knock and not throwing codes, it doesn't​ mean you should be thrown in the crazy house and told you're hearing things. It's a whole new ballgame with downsized, direct injection, and turbocharging, especially as commented earlier that the GTI is quick spool.

I would love your thoughts on this guys. Have any of you heard pinging without codes, tuned or not, and if so, did you find a remedy? I'll say this, I definitely heard knock and found that shift points and an early oil change made a big difference.
 

e3syler

Passed Driver's Ed
So in other words get the extended warranty if your going to give it hell.
But seriously this is good to know thanks for the info.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

dduck

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Georgia
I've been wondering about this when flooring it from 2-3K RPMs for logs. Isn't repeatedly doing this basically lugging the hell out of the engine? Can logged info still be useful if the throttle was rolled on up to redline rather than stomping it?
 

JRowland

New member
Location
Pittsburgh
Other interesting facts about super-knock, LSPI:

"It was observed that the engine oil degradation increased the LSPI frequency." - SAE Technical Paper, 2013-01-2569.

"Calcium, which is used to ensure detergency and anti-rust performance, is reported to increase LSPI events." - SAE Technical Paper, 2015-01-2027

I take this to mean that running just any motor oil is potentially dangerous with these cars, and dangerous to stretch maintenance intervals. After digging around a little, I found that Castrol Edge synthetic is in the 700's range for Calcium, which is quite low in comparison to other popular oil choices, and also good in that it appears to be the same VW OE fill.

I have a 2017 WRX which is also a small DI turbo. I've done a lot of homework on LSPI and oil selection. Bob is the oil guy has some great info over there, but I'm trying to stay away from high Calcium oil. I showed my wife the Engineering Explained video the minute we brought the GTI home. With a DSG and not manually shifting on a stock tune there shouldn't be any issues. Manual shifting you need to be smart about lugging the motor. Under 2k RPM is the danger zone. Read this post, ARghx7 is a pretty smart guy (he tunes for OEMs) and he posted some good graphs in this post.
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2829238

If you want I can link you to some more threads over there, there has been a lot of conversation about it.
 
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