GOLFMK8
GOLFMK7
GOLFMK6
GOLFMKV
  • Hey all, welcome to GolfMK6, the 6th gen GOLF site which includes the Golf, GTI and other Golf derivations.

    Your moderators here are: GTI2007, bubuski, danielj, Bender, Grambles423, Merkle and SayaGTI

    Administrators are JJ-R32 and Gulfer

    Please feel free to contact the administrators of this forum for site feedback, registration problems or other inquiries by using the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of any page or forum (http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/sendmessage.php )

    _____________________________________


    The board administration and its moderators at golfmk6.com ask that our members follow a few basic rules in order to ensure a friendly atmosphere. Failure to do so may result in a violation. Violations will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis and may result in warnings or expulsion from the forums. This will be decided upon at the discretion of the board administration and its moderators. Contributing members are encouraged to report any violations and make recommendations regarding our site.

    The Code of Conduct is as follows:

    1. Trolling, flaming, and bashing are not acceptable at golfmk6.com. Trolling includes, but is not limited to posting controversial messages with the intention of baiting other users into an argumentative response. Flaming includes, but is not limited to insulting and hostile interaction between users. Bashing, likewise, is also not permitted. All communications are to remain on a respectful and mature level. Do not retaliate to an inappropriate post with another inappropriate post. Instead use the "Report post to moderator" button, or simply PM your moderators if such an instance should arise.

    2. No tolerance is given for racist and derogatory remarks.

    3. Respect your moderators. The moderators are volunteers and avid Volkswagen fans who graciously donate their time to golfmk6.com. This online community would not be possible without their assistance.

    4. Accessing or attempting to access another members account is prohibited. Purposeful invasion of a forum members privacy is also prohibited.

    5. Members are to have only one username. Creating an additional username after expulsion from the site will result in blocking the user's IP address.

    6. Nudity of any type is not permitted within the forums. This includes the Off-Topic forums. Threads with adult content are to be posted in the "OFF-TOPIC" forum and must contain "NWS" in the thread title as a courtesy to other members. Forums outside of the Off-Topic forums are to maintain a G Rating.

    7. All posts are to be related to the topic of the thread they are discussed within. Post that are off-topic of the original post are subject to being deleted.

    8. Signatures must be of appropriate length. Signature photos and graphics must also be kept minimal in size.

    9. Spamming is not allowed. Advertisements are not allowed without the explicit permission of the administration. Please contact the administrators for more details on becoming a golfmk6.com sponsor.

    10. Illegal use of copyrighted or trademarked material is not permitted. This includes linking and/or discussions related to obtaining illegal distributions.

    11. In addition to the aforementioned rules, questionable or undesirable content deemed inappropriate by the administration or the moderators will be subject to review on a case-by-case basis.

    __________________________________________


    Vendor and Solicitation Threads


    Administrators are JJ-R32 and Gulfer

    Please contact the administrators for more details on becoming a golfmk6.com sponsor or vendor by using the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of any page or forum (http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/sendmessage.php )

    Golfmk6.com prohibits the advertising and solicitation of products and/or services from businesses and/or their agents without prior consent from one of the Administrators of this forum. Please PM an Administrator for clarification or permission BEFORE starting a thread or listing a business in your signature. Audits are randomly done and bans and citations will be given to violators of this rule. Each citation is reviewed on a case-by-case basis by the site administrators and moderators.

    Violating vendors of the rules below may receive a forum ban.

    1. Vendor advertisements Threads are to be posted in the Vendor Classifieds forum. Threads announcing promotions and discounts should be placed in the Vendor Classifieds forum. Cross-posting a thread announcing promotions and discounts across multiple forums is considered spamming and is prohibited.
    • New product announcement threads can go in the applicable forum, but sales of the product should go in the vendor forum.
    2. Vendors are allowed to organize Group Buys by initiating a thread in the Vendor Classifieds forum. Cross-posting a Group Buy thread across multiple forums is considered spamming and is prohibited.

    3. Signatures Advertisements are allowed but we ask to keep it of appropriate length. We also ask to add information on your signature line stating the company you work for, etc., so golfmk6 members know you are a vendor.

    4. Golfmk6.com members who choose to rate sellers in classified threads must post with a FIRST-HAND and FACTUAL account of a transaction and/or product. If for any unfortunate reason you must post a negative experience, please***GOLFMK6 MEMBERS PLEASE READ (Technical Forums)***


    The technical threads have become much more argumentative lately. Although this forum is relatively new, members have approached me regarding the direction some threads seem to head. As usual, posts will be reviewed on a case by case basis.

    When a thread involves a discussion regarding a particular product or company that you may not be in support of, you are expected to post responsibly/maturely if you choose to comment in such a thread. Failure to do so and you will be subject to infraction and/or ban.

    In regards to the ban: The initial ban might be for two weeks, followed by a chance to come back to the forums with a better attitude. If you choose not to change the intent of your post, then you will be permanently banned.
    Simple as that.

    Take care and enjoy the forum.
  • Has your username changed as part of the site merger and want it changed back? If the other version of your username isn't being used, send Gulfer a PM and we can probably fix it for you

GTI Data Logging Compendium

A_Bowers

Moderator
This thread will serve as a comparison thread for ALL GTI logs.

I want this to be as academic as possible, and any posts that are deemed inappropriate will be deleted.


3rd party logging (i.e. members) is preferred, however if a tuner would like to share information (and that alone) that is acceptable as well.



Thanks for everyone who has put forth time and effort to log these files, and looking forward to some hard data to compare.

Conditions for logging information (from this edit forward 4/26/13)


- Software Stage
- Software Provider
- Hardware Modifications
- Conditions of the run (gear that was logged, ambient temperature and altitude).



Baseline/minimum data set to log

You should log the following:
001-1
003-2
003-4

020-1
020-2
020-3
020-4

031-1
054-4
114-4
115-3
115-4


You can use the advanced measuring blocks function in VCDS to log 12 channels at once in turbo mode. (If you have the full hex-can). Don't think the micro can has this feature.

To pull more data from the micro-can cable change these settings.

BLK INT = 25
CHAR INT = 0
 

U-20T

Go Kart Champion
MDHOLLIS logs not mine but pulling them over for the reference.

Uni lines - UNITRONIC stage 2+ off the shelf tune
APR lines - APR v2 93 oct program

To be fair there were both on W/M injection.




Here is the data range used.



And here are the two logs that the data ranges were pulled from (highlighted in yellow). I tried to match the data series as close as possible.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ku803i7bif871k4/eMk0Jq-cOm
 

A_Bowers

Moderator
Well your engine is breathing well. Most TSI logs I've observed show MAF readings of 250-260 G's/second. I'm at 260...and you are at 270. Your maf readings at 5400 rpm are what I am seeing at redline. What intake?

Your boost log looks very very similar to mine with boost falling to 16 psi at redline and a little under requested, but meeting/exceeding requested up until higher up in the RPM band.

Your timing advance looks very similar to mine as well. Not close to these UNI guys though.

Timing pull throughout the entire rev range even in smallish amounts might be of concern. I pull timing in a similar fashion but to a lesser degree, mostly below 3-4.

Also I am assuming this is the APR v2 tune correct?
I've discussed this with Grambles a bit, and there may be a few factors involved with the G/s is so high.

Ive got the Neuspeed K04 discharge pipe, which from what i have seen on others dyno graphs, is that you continue to make power towards redline.

That is why i feel flow is much higher. Intercooler may come into play here as well....dont know how academic of a judgement that is, but that is also another idea to contemplate.

Im not thrilled with timing pull either, as it is quite a bit here and there. Bronson suggested switching to another company for fuel, as I have been running Sunoco 93 since i purchased the vehicle. He suggested Shell, which is just down the road. SO ill try that and log some more when i have a chance to.
 

A_Bowers

Moderator
No problem

Got to drive Allset's car today as a side note and damn is she smooth and fast. Unfotunatly no WOT logs from today though.
Good deal! It's always nice to have an exposure to different tunes, and method of getting the job done.
 

ns01gti

Go Kart Champion
I've discussed this with Grambles a bit, and there may be a few factors involved with the G/s is so high.

Ive got the Neuspeed K04 discharge pipe, which from what i have seen on others dyno graphs, is that you continue to make power towards redline.

That is why i feel flow is much higher. Intercooler may come into play here as well....dont know how academic of a judgement that is, but that is also another idea to contemplate.

Im not thrilled with timing pull either, as it is quite a bit here and there. Bronson suggested switching to another company for fuel, as I have been running Sunoco 93 since i purchased the vehicle. He suggested Shell, which is just down the road. SO ill try that and log some more when i have a chance to.
Looks to me like you're getting a bit higher MAF readings than Grambles and I did when we were looking at the carbonio and modshack.

http://golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44138

I wonder if perhaps cooler temps could be a factor?

As for timing pull, I thought 6 degrees as a max was OK?
 

A_Bowers

Moderator
Looks to me like you're getting a bit higher MAF readings than Grambles and I did when we were looking at the carbonio and modshack.

http://golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44138

I wonder if perhaps cooler temps could be a factor?

As for timing pull, I thought 6 degrees as a max was OK?

I'm just now getting into understanding the deeper side of ECU tuning so, that question might be better suited to UNI APR, GIAC folks. .


Keep in mind that you guys had the OEM pancake pipe, vs the Neuspeed one.
This is running the carbonio, btw.

If I'm understanding things right, temp shouldn't have too much an effect on flow. Boost PSI, absolutely, but not sure of flow rates.

My ultimate goal is to try and reduce all restrictions on both sides of the turbocharger. Hot side is good. No cat, and 3 inches all the way back.

I need to replace the OEM TB pipe, and that should take care of that side.

That's my thinking on why flow rates are higher. But I could be totally off base.
 

grambles423

Automotive Engineer
I have about 10 logs on my work computer. Will post soon.

Ill also grab some Stage 2 logs.

More data the better!
 

A_Bowers

Moderator
Also, the intake logs from the technical sticky can be pulled here too
Ya mean these :)


Its been quite a while since I've posted a Technical Understanding thread with some hard data and calculations to further feed our minds. Since most of the conceptual basis of the earlier threads were.....for the least bit.....theorhetical and quite possibly boring, I decided to do a little experimenting (with help from NS01GTI) to collaborate data to compare stock intake with drop ins and aftermarket intakes.

Test Requirements:
- APR K04 93OCT Runs (~366hp ~380tq)
- APR IC (will affect IATs but will remain consistent)
- 3rd and 4th Gear Runs (Data was collaborated in 4th gear due to sample size and output.)
- Consistent Ambient Runs (Or at least within a +/- 5*F Tolerance from our Nominal)
- Stock Intake is a CBFA Intake with no modifications
- VWR Drop in incorporated the deletion of the baffle at the bottom of the air box
- Carbonio was done in two stages: Stage 1 only and Stage 1+2 (PENDING DATA COLLECTION)
- Same stretch of roadway was used
- Variation in Starting RPM Ranged from 200-300RPM in 4th (~2200) and 200RPM in 3rd (2700).
- Redline will be assumed as the normal redline but some logs will be shown past 6600RPM due to the DSG Stage 2 flash (7100RPM Redline) that was added mid testing (DSG Tuning added Post VWR Drop in, Pre Carbonio Stage 1)

Results:
Stock Intake


3rd Gear Run:


4th Gear Run:


Thoughts

Immediately you can see that the stock box will not hold boost properly throughout the entire rev band. Sort of a "dying effect" much like the stock turbo sees.

Boost control is smooth in the midrange which correlates with the peak condition you see intially. Still, the "butt dyno" registers a loss in the system and takes away a lot of the "raw" manly feeling of the K04. You can see the discrepancy from requested and actual better in the 3rd gear log.

Some thoughts in my build thread about the construction of the stock box:


Takeaway: Stock box is not efficient enough to hold and maintain boost through the rev band an on into the upper RPMS. Also, stock box shows higher IATs up the RPM band even with the APR IC.

VWR Drop In Filter


4th Gear Run:


Comparison


So what does this mean? It seems that the drop ins will actually help alleviate some of the down low restriction and allow the turbo to spool quicker, but will not give any added flow up top. Since in fact that two MAF rates look IDENTICAL at redline, I would be safe to say that its simply not worth it. The boost still dies sharply after the "point" has been reached where the flow just cannot keep up with the requested pressure.

Dont mind the lower value for the Drop in filter for boost at the final point. This could be % error in between measurements on different days. The point to take away is that it did not ADD any "breathing" at higher RPM. Ipso Facto......the stock intake box is just too damn restrictive for the boost to keep matching requested values at the last 1/3 of the rev band.

Takeaway: While a drop in allows for some down low flow to spool slightly quicker, up top the car still cannot meet its requested boost. You're still choking the car at upper RPMs


Carbonio Stage 1


4th Gear Pull:


Looking over the logs, the carbonio decreases lag and onset WAY faster than the VWR drop in and Stock filter and flows more in the higher RPMs, thus allowing to hold boost easier (0.29psi discrepancy between Specified and Actual)



Peak MAF Readings
Stock Intake: 236.4
VWR Drop In: 235.8 *******Difference can be error between measurements
Carbonio Full: 258.8

Difference in Peak and Redline Hold
Stock Intake: 5.51psi
VWR Drop In: 5.61psi
Carbonio Full: 3.9psi

Difference in Requested and Actual at Redline
Stock Intake: 2.2psi
VWR Drop In: 2.03psi
Carbonio Full: 0.29psi
Takeaway: Data speaks for itself. An aftermarket intake is definitely worth while. Especially one that is sealed off from the engine bay and only pulls cold air from outside the vehicle.

Carbonio Stage 1 and 2






Take Away:
1) More MAF: ~6.2g/s higher (On a 9F hotter day)
2) More Boost Requested: Almost 1psi higher in the upper RPMs
3) Faster Request (Quicker Spool) in Lower RPMs:
4) Slightly Faster Response to Peak: 200RPM Sooner
5) Higher MAF Readings in the Mid Range Except under boost control
6) Equal Tempearture discrepancy from Start to Finish: 5-6*C

All in all the turbo is working less strenuously to boost better but the peak will come quicker asking for the Wastegate to dial it back quicker. This is mostly why people find hesitations in after market intakes besides the Stage 1 portions. However, I dont find too many driveability problems with this.


Additional Intake Comparison Data (Carbonio vs. Modshack)


Thanks to the help of NS01GTI, we were able to get an accurate depiction of the clear differances between the two common intakes seen on this forum. One for Noise control, the other for high performance. Its ultimately the end user's decision to make a choice and what they would like, but for some fun, we decided to take the same data that we did in the previous setup:

4th Gear Run Carbonio:


4th Gear Run Modshack:


Comparison Graphs:


What I immediately saw was the discrepancy in reuqested boost values and actual values again. It seems that the Modshack, while not having the restriction like the stock box, still shows upper RPM boost loss from requested. MAF vales were also very considerably different in the midrange that we couldnt just say there was "variation in the runs" Almost 50-60g/sec more.

The driver also noted the "butt dyno" difference between the two. At upper RPMs the car just felt out of breath.

A quick thought about the sound differences:



Takeaway:
1) Carbonio has more mid range MAF and a quicker spool time.
2) Ambient conditions were different to each run but both IATs got down to the same temperature (~33*C)
3) Modshack has an almost 2psi difference between requested and actual at a higher RPM. The Carbonio seems to hold the boost more.
4) Carbonio log was started at a lower RPM, yet spooled quicker than the Modshack which started almost 200RPM quicker. The Carbonio log was the "hotter" of the two logs in terms of IATs

Conclusion

All in all this was a very fun excersise and it really showed some similarities and differences amongst OEM design, drop ins and aftermarket competitors. While it was VERY hard to keep some variables consistent, we still managed data that can be judged as sufficient for analyzing.

Furthermore, even if the data speaks so much, it helped me (and probably others) understand more of the flow dynamics involved in our little TSI engines. Where's the performance compromise? Where's the sound compromise?[/QUOTE]
 

timneedscoffee10

Go Kart Champion
Good deal... I'm going to log tomorrow, so it's great to have some independent reference material to compare against!

I'll most likely not post mine here until I get my new clutch, and break it in. The clutch slip causes odd looking dips mid-run... But I'll definitely contribute here in the next few weeks.

:thumbsup:
 
Top