realcyberbob
Go Kart Champion
Great thread.
6
MASTER CLUTCH APPLICATION GUIDE - WHAT DO WE REALLY NEED?
- Thread starter HYDE161
- Start date
leiito1
Go Kart Champion
South Bend Stage 3 drop in here with K04 almost through the recommended break in period. I'm also living in Mexico where it's mostly stop and go traffic in my area. Engagement feels completely OEM with slightly higher engagement. Bowers says it only gets better with use, but I can't really see how. I'll post about how it holds K04 power once I get through breaking it in.
Thanks for the PM Hyde
Thanks for the PM Hyde
troyguitar
Go Kart Champion
I guess I've been lucky in that I have 22k miles on the stock clutch at stage 1 power levels including ballistic track days on the 100 octane file (i.e. more torque than stage 2 93 octane) - zero slipping whatsoever so far. That being said, I am sort of hoping that my clutch starts slipping so that I can get something better with a nice lightweight SMF to kill this annoying rev hang. That and install a Wavetrac LSD at the same time...
Had a SB Stage 3 clutch. It blew during the later part of the summer. On a stage 4 now. Not a huge difference in drivability going to the 4, but getting to the point where I don't like driving the car when there is a lot of traffic(probably due as much to the throttle lag or whatever it is called as it is to the clutch though).
MaliciousMK6
Go Kart Champion
Im glad this started, too many smaller threads with broken up info, Ive purchased a FX350 kit using OEM DMFW. PM me, Lou, or JT64 for details on the best deal for CM kits!
mustache rash
Go Kart Champion
I about to pull the plug on the cm fx350 w/smf.
Thanks for this thread
Thanks for this thread
Dom1
Ready to race!
I just did. Clay was super friendly and atleast theres no import duties since its in canada :happyanim:
JT641
Banned
I was like you as far the driving goes, I go through San Francisco a least once a month, But where I live is kinda of out in the country side & I was also going back & forth between the FX350 & full face 400, But in the end ordered up the FX350 (I also will be going K04 once I finish upgrading the suspension & brakes).
Great idea HYDE.:thumbup:
mustache rash
Go Kart Champion
Here is my dilemma.
Southbends revised silent stage 2 vs clutchmasters fx350 both with smf
HSTuning price for the Southbend is $1075 ringer for the fx350 is $1066 (basically same)
Which should I go with and why?
Southbends revised silent stage 2 vs clutchmasters fx350 both with smf
HSTuning price for the Southbend is $1075 ringer for the fx350 is $1066 (basically same)
Which should I go with and why?
XGC75
Go Kart Champion
Okay I've got a lot to say about this thread. HYDE, thanks for pointing me here.
I'm in the process of getting my six-sigma blackbelt certification. Blackbelts are engineers trained in using designed experimentation to draw meaningful conclusions. So I'm on the market for a clutch, which means I'm naturally interested, but the subject really has my interest piqued because I haven't seen a lot of hard, substantial work behind the clutch choices people are making. I'm sure there's a lot of work from the manufacturing end to make a passable product, but the consumer's demands are what will really drive the balance between cost, comfort, and ultimately power holding capabilities. The manufacturers really just want to sell you a kit. So ultimately it's up to us to groupthink our requirements.
(I know it sounds like I'm being harsh on the manufacturers and vendors, but all I'm saying is that we the customers need to better understand our options and what they'll do to the cost, comfort and power holding capabilities. The fact that a manufacurer has a kit shouldn't be the only reason we buy it)
The first thing you learn in six sigma is Y = g
+ N = f(x) + N. In words, Y is the goal. In our case, the three goals are cost, comfort and power holding capabilities. I'd say reliability, but you'll see in a bit why it can't be a goal. y's are the measurable outputs of a system, and x's are the controllable inputs. N is noise. Anything you know is a factor that affects your y's or your Y's but you know you can't control are your N's. Put into words, that equation means "my desired goal is a sum of measurable outputs that can be attained as a function of my system's inputs, plus the uncontrollable system noises." See it? (The problem with reliability is that there are no x's we can manage, no levers we can play with that can be measured as a y, an output. You could measure time or mileage, but it's not going to be helpful in the near-term for building this picture.)
So what are our x's? Kit makeup is a big one, of course. I personally believe that the 80 degrees or so of travel afforded by the DMFW is going to do a much better job at controlling gear chatter than a sprung disk with just 10 degrees of travel (or so. I don't know either's real travel angles). But we've got that covered in the OP for the most part, though we should definitely be separating SB's new Exedy clutches from the old suppliers.
Temperature is a huge factor that's not being listed - clutches need thermal cycles for break-in and power holding. Probably comfort, but that's just a guess. So we need a way to log climate here. I live in Michigan so I'll see an average of around 78 in the summer and 34 in the winter. I'd be 78/34, for example.
Our y's are difficult to measure. But I think that if we can ask the right questions of some of these owners, we could draw meaningful conclusions out of the answers (which, ultimately, would be numbers for HYDE and the rest of us to draw conclusions from). The key is asking the right questions so that the answers are based less on subjective opinion and "I bought that so it must be the best" mentality.
Take sound, for example. Can you hear the clutch chatter over vent fan setting 1? 2? 3? 4? How about with AC on? How about gear chatter? Gear chatter with AC on? This is just an example of a way to minimize subjectivity from sound.
For engagement, I hear a lot of people talking about stiffness as a percentage of stock (15% greater, for example), which while being pretty damn subjective, I can't really argue with because I don't have a better idea atm!
That brings up subjective comparisons. In six sigma you're taught never to trust subjectivity even if it is a detailed comparison, but here with the limited resources we have it's difficult to do without. If you have first hand back-to-back experiences with different clutches, speak up! Just try not to exaggerate the differences you feel, please.
What's so great about this thread is that HYDE is a statistician, so he's prepared to bring meaning out of numbers from populations of data. Blackbelts do this by learning their system ahead of time and designing their experiments so that the numbers validate theories. I want to help by asking the right questions so that someone stumbling on this thread can say, "I want comfort with enough capability to hold Stage 2" and HYDE can present them with their options.
tl;dr: Ask the right questions so that we can draw meaningful conclusions from the data. Also, this thread is the tits. (.)(.)
I'm in the process of getting my six-sigma blackbelt certification. Blackbelts are engineers trained in using designed experimentation to draw meaningful conclusions. So I'm on the market for a clutch, which means I'm naturally interested, but the subject really has my interest piqued because I haven't seen a lot of hard, substantial work behind the clutch choices people are making. I'm sure there's a lot of work from the manufacturing end to make a passable product, but the consumer's demands are what will really drive the balance between cost, comfort, and ultimately power holding capabilities. The manufacturers really just want to sell you a kit. So ultimately it's up to us to groupthink our requirements.
(I know it sounds like I'm being harsh on the manufacturers and vendors, but all I'm saying is that we the customers need to better understand our options and what they'll do to the cost, comfort and power holding capabilities. The fact that a manufacurer has a kit shouldn't be the only reason we buy it)
The first thing you learn in six sigma is Y = g
+ N = f(x) + N. In words, Y is the goal. In our case, the three goals are cost, comfort and power holding capabilities. I'd say reliability, but you'll see in a bit why it can't be a goal. y's are the measurable outputs of a system, and x's are the controllable inputs. N is noise. Anything you know is a factor that affects your y's or your Y's but you know you can't control are your N's. Put into words, that equation means "my desired goal is a sum of measurable outputs that can be attained as a function of my system's inputs, plus the uncontrollable system noises." See it? (The problem with reliability is that there are no x's we can manage, no levers we can play with that can be measured as a y, an output. You could measure time or mileage, but it's not going to be helpful in the near-term for building this picture.)So what are our x's? Kit makeup is a big one, of course. I personally believe that the 80 degrees or so of travel afforded by the DMFW is going to do a much better job at controlling gear chatter than a sprung disk with just 10 degrees of travel (or so. I don't know either's real travel angles). But we've got that covered in the OP for the most part, though we should definitely be separating SB's new Exedy clutches from the old suppliers.
Temperature is a huge factor that's not being listed - clutches need thermal cycles for break-in and power holding. Probably comfort, but that's just a guess. So we need a way to log climate here. I live in Michigan so I'll see an average of around 78 in the summer and 34 in the winter. I'd be 78/34, for example.
Our y's are difficult to measure. But I think that if we can ask the right questions of some of these owners, we could draw meaningful conclusions out of the answers (which, ultimately, would be numbers for HYDE and the rest of us to draw conclusions from). The key is asking the right questions so that the answers are based less on subjective opinion and "I bought that so it must be the best" mentality.
Take sound, for example. Can you hear the clutch chatter over vent fan setting 1? 2? 3? 4? How about with AC on? How about gear chatter? Gear chatter with AC on? This is just an example of a way to minimize subjectivity from sound.
For engagement, I hear a lot of people talking about stiffness as a percentage of stock (15% greater, for example), which while being pretty damn subjective, I can't really argue with because I don't have a better idea atm!
That brings up subjective comparisons. In six sigma you're taught never to trust subjectivity even if it is a detailed comparison, but here with the limited resources we have it's difficult to do without. If you have first hand back-to-back experiences with different clutches, speak up! Just try not to exaggerate the differences you feel, please.
What's so great about this thread is that HYDE is a statistician, so he's prepared to bring meaning out of numbers from populations of data. Blackbelts do this by learning their system ahead of time and designing their experiments so that the numbers validate theories. I want to help by asking the right questions so that someone stumbling on this thread can say, "I want comfort with enough capability to hold Stage 2" and HYDE can present them with their options.
tl;dr: Ask the right questions so that we can draw meaningful conclusions from the data. Also, this thread is the tits. (.)(.)
HYDE161
Go Kart Champion
Added
Thank you!
Nice! used the CTS Turbo coupon code?
Added, you're welcome.
Added
Thank you.
You're welcome.
Gracias.