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Official Sway Bar Discussion Thread

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
Official Sway Bar Spec & Discussion Thread


1.

I collected the most interesting sway bar specs that can be used on both
Mk.V and Mk.VI GTI (FWD) and R32/R (4-motion):



car model/manufacturer, front bar dia x wall thickness, rear bar x wall thickness


stock (most are hollow, see wall thickness):


standard Golf/TDI/A3: 21.7x3.0 or 22.5x.3.5 / 18.5x2.5 or 19.6x2.6 or 20.7x2.8

Scirocco: 21.7x3.0 or 22.5x.3.5 / 20.7x2.8 or 21.7x3.0

TT-RS quattro: 22,0 solid mm solid / 18.5 x 2.5 mm

A3 Ambition/S-Line FWD: 22,5 x 3,5 / 20,7 x 2,8

Golf V GTI: 23,6 x 3,5 / 21,7 x 3,0

Golf V R32: 22,0 solid / 21,7 x 3,0 (4-motion)

Golf VI GTI: 23,6 x 3,5 / 21,7 x 3,0 PR-0BF or 21,7 x 3,6 PR-0BM (DCC?)

Golf VI R: 22,0 solid / 21,7 x 3,6 (4-motion)

Scirocco R: 23,6 x 3,5 / 21,7 x 3,6

Touran 170 PS: 23,0 solid / 21,7 x 3,0

Passat R36: 23,6 solid / 21,7 x 3,6 (4-motion)

Sharan 2011 on: 24.0 mm solid / 20.0 mm solid



after market (almost all are solid):


H&R 'small': 26 / 22 mm

SPM: 26 / 22 mm

Eibach AntiRoll: 26 / 23 mm

KW clubsport: 26 / 23 mm (made by Eibach)

VW Racing: 26 / 23 mm (made by Eibach, discontinued)

SuperPro: 24 / 22 mm FWD

SuperPro: 24 / 24 (26) mm AWD

ECS: 26 / 23 mm

Whiteline: 24 / 24 mm (3-way adjustable)

Autotech: 25 / 25 mm (tube/hollow; reliability issues)

Neuspeed: 25 / 25 mm (tube/hollow; also 28 mm rear avail.; reliability issues)

BFI/Stabila: -- / 25 mm rear only (different versions for FWD and AWD)

034Motorsport: 25.4 mm rear only

Hotchkis: 27 / 27 mm (tube/hollow)

APR: 27 / 27 mm (tube/hollow; made by Hotchkis)

BSH: -- / 27 mm (3-way) rear only

H&R 'big': 28 / 24 mm (AWE/H&R 28 mm rear bar discontinued)

H&R TT Quattro: 24 / 22 mm incl. TT-RS (4WD only)

H&R 4-motion/Quattro: 24 / 26 mm (4WD only)

I don't know if Autotech and Neuspeed bars do come from the same manufacturer.
Suspiciously both share the same dimensions and similar reliability probs.


2.

I also compared several arm length ratios:



Eibach front 26 mm: 190 and 210 mm
Eibach rear 23 mm: 160 and 175 mm

H&R front 28 mm: 198 and 218 mm
H&R rear 24 mm: 140 and 160 mm

Whiteline front 24 mm: 199, 217 and 235 mm
Whiteline rear 24 mm: 205, 215 and 225 mm

There are some differences, particularly on rear. The H&R are shortest, Whiteline are longest.
Keep in mind H&R kits come with a bigger front bar, so this matches the different arm lengths.


3.

Last not least, an example of sway bar rates:


This is the sway bar stiffness in N/mm.


short arm vs. long arm


- stock front sway bar Mk.V/VI GTI, diameter 23,6 x 3,5 mm - tube:

c = 65,6 N/mm

- H&R front sway bar, diameter 28 mm - solid:

c = 172 N/mm center (~ 156 N/mm long and 188 N/mm short arm)


- stock rear sway bar Mk.V/VI GTI, dia 21,7 x 3 mm - tube:

c = 59,5 N/mm

- H&R rear sway bar, diameter. 24 mm - solid:

c = 122,7 N/mm center (~ 109 N/mm long and 139 N/mm short arm)


Obviously the rear H&R doubles the torsional resistance, the front H&R even is 2.5 to
almost 3 times stiffer.



Stiffness Specs of 2013 VWR sway bars:

VWRPA014A:
1. 56.4N/mm; +32%
2. 69.1N/mm; +44%
3. 86.5N/mm; +55%

VWRPA015B:
1. 50.2N/mm; +9%
2. 66.9N/mm; +31%
3. 93.4N/mm; +51%

VWRPA014B:
1. 88.2N/mm; +46%
2. 116.9N/mm; +59%
3. 161.7N/mm; +70%

The % seem a little bit confusing when proved data states the stock GTI sways
already are 65,6 N/mm front and 59,5 N/mm rear.



Uprated sway bares used together with common coilovers, body roll
should be only half as much compared to stock at the same cornering
speed.



Why I don't recommend fitting a bigger rear sway while leaving the front
one stock:


Bear in mind a GTI's sway bar rates are 65,6 N/mm front and 59,5 N/mm
rear, which equals a 52:48 % ratio, while the weight distribution is 60:40.

In some way we could conclude stock sways already are rear biased !!!

Ok, this is just half the truth. While the GTI's rear sway bar ist still stiffer
in relation to the weight, this isn't necessarily true for roll stiffness, as the
roll center ist also an equally significiant factor. And yes, roll centers aren't
same height front and rear. Unfortunately reliable data is hard to obtain.

However, while a too-stiff rear sway might give you funny turning at lower
speeds and narrow corners, it will also cause dagerous high-speed oversteer.

DO NOT TAKE A RISK - NO FUN, DUDES !!!!



http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins/BL-281.pdf

http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins/010barup.pdf


Installation:

http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59709

See also ECS and Futrell videos on YT.


Prices:

http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Golf_VI--2.0T/Suspension/Sway_Bar/
 
Last edited:

confuc1ous

Go Kart Champion
The rear 26mm Eibach is also adjustable, not sure if you wanted to edit and slap that in there.
 

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
The rear 26mm Eibach is also adjustable, not sure if you wanted to edit and slap that in there.


Which 26 mm rear Eibach? Is it a 4-motion? :confused:

Any link on this? I will kindly add it if I get the complete data. ;)
 

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
I did a mistake:

H&R 4-motion/Quattro are 24 / 26 mm.
 

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
Some thoughts about different front sway bar diameters:


By using the Whiteline chart derived from 28 mm and assuming same arm length
the 26 mm H&R should be extremely close to these specs:


- stock GTI front sway: dia 23,6 x 3,5 mm - tube

c = 65,6 N/mm


- H&R front sway: dia 28 mm - solid

c = 172 N/mm center (~ 156 N/mm long and ~ 188 N/mm short arm)


- H&R front sway: dia 26 mm - solid

c = 127 N/mm center (~ 115 N/mm long and ~ 139 N/mm short arm)



You will easily recognize the 28 mm is even when set to soft slightly stiffer than
the 26 mm set to stiff. I think you won't feel this marginal difference though.
I strongly believe you won't feel if you run a 26 mm set to stiff or the 28 mm set
to soft.
 

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
So I did a search in the forum already and it seems most people with two aftermarket sway bars, typically have a bigger front (26-28) and a smaller rear (22-26) with the front on 'Soft' and the 'Rear' on Medium/Hard. I understand this is to make the car feel more 'neutral' when turning/cornering.

I haven't seen any threads of anyone's setup for front and rear sway bars that are the same size.

So for the Whiteline sway bars which I purchased, the FSB is 4 point adjustable and the RSB is 3 point adjustable.

http://www.autoanything.com/suspension-systems/61A6663A0A0.aspx.

Question for you tuning experts, what setting would you recommend for a little bit better cornering, with some understeer remaining. My car is stock other than the DG springs which will go on the car at the same time as the sway bars. I want to be able to tell the tuner to dial it in and I don't want to think about it.:iono:


For DD I'd try front bar to medium and rear to soft. On track with both bars on full stiff
chances will be good you will be happy with the result if you have proper dampers.
Keep in mind increased overall spring rates put a higher load into the dampers.
 

nearsite00

Ready to race!
For DD I'd try front bar to medium and rear to soft. On track with both bars on full stiff
chances will be good you will be happy with the result if you have proper dampers.
Keep in mind increased overall spring rates put a higher load into the dampers.



Thanks for your feedback the bruce. My front bar has four settings (1-softest to 4-stiffest), for a daily driver should I go 2 or 3? I have stock dampers and will have DG springs as well.
 

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
I'd strongly recommend to try several settings on your own as every car is different
(tires, pressure, alignment specs) and it also depends on personal preferences.

After fitting the springs you will need to have an alignment done. You might be
interested in this:

http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36488

I'd also consider TT mounts, new strut bearings and an ALK or S3 bushings.
 

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
I got a PM asking about front sway bars and my answer might be of general interest:


I know many guys recommend a rear sway only, but I strongly believe they are wrong.
I tried it all on my own: stock sways, 24 mm rear and 28 + 24 mm front and rear with
all possible settings. No doubt both bars was best by far.
Possibly most guys never tried both bars and they parrot half-whisdom on the forums.
A common misconception I believe.

A front sway will reduce overall roll much more than the rear sway, improve steering
(in feel and quicker), turn in and make you car feel more stable. On the other hand it
slightly affects traction on bad roads, but not necessarily on good ones. I was wonde-
ring my self that I didn't have any increase in understeer. I even prefer the stiff setting
of the 28 mm front bar.

To make things short: If you already have a 24 mm rear sway I strongly recommend
at least a 24, 25 or 26 mm front sway bar.


We were talking about this already here:

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120841

(Keep in mind: Mk.V chassis = Mk.VI chassis)


Feel free to ask any questions, fellows !!
 

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
Do you have the 28 front as well and what are your settings?

I'm currently 26/22 HR soft/soft and the car corners flat most of the time. However on long cloverleaf off ramps and sharp turns I can still make the body roll like stock.

I'm going to try rear hard front soft this Monday to see if I can take out more body roll. If that doesn't work ill sell the 26/22 on here and go up to 28/24 starting on soft/soft.


Setting both bars to stiff will reduce body roll far more because most weight
is on front and the front bar has a much bigger effect on roll.

I'd leave the 26 mm in place and fit a 24 mm rear. An awesome combination !!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

When both set to stiff you'll notice almost no roll at all. ;)
 
Last edited:

rs999

Go Kart Champion
Setting both bars to stiff will reduce body roll far more because most weight
is on front and the front bar has amuch bigger effect on roll.

I'd leave the 26 mm in place and fit a 24 mm rear. An awsome combination !!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

When both set to stiff you'll notice almost no roll at all. ;)

But both 26/22 on hard will add harshness to regular roads, correct?

I was going to start with rear hard front soft because the current soft soft setting still has a bit of roll. I have been on this setting for a month now.

I thought with the front on hard you'll have ride harshness because the hard front bar will allow for less movement of the front wheels.

I'm going to try f/r soft/hard for the next two to four weeks if I don't like it in my daily commute ill try hard hard. Then graduate to 28/24 bars if hard hard doesn't work out.
 

the bruce

Go Kart Champion
But both 26/22 on hard will add harshness to regular roads, correct?

I wouldn't call it "harshness". It's a kind of stiffness on some surfaces
when the road changes leaning to the left and then to the right.

You'll notice the same when you fit the 28 mm front bar and set this
to soft. It's just hours of labour for swapping the front bar, so keep
the 26 mm on front and feel free to swap the rear bar for a 24 mm
and set them to your liking.

To know your liking you need to try the possible settings on your own.
It just takes 10 min.


I was going to start with rear hard front soft because the current soft soft setting still has a bit of roll. I have been on this setting for a month now.

I thought with the front on hard you'll have ride harshness because the hard front bar will allow for less movement of the front wheels.

I'm going to try f/r soft/hard for the next two to four weeks if I don't like it in my daily commute ill try hard hard. Then graduate to 28/24 bars if hard hard doesn't work out.

You're on the right way. Try it all. Don't get fooled by missleading information
on some forums.

And read my posting about sway bar stiffnesses above. The 26 mm on stiff
is SOFTER than the 28 mm bar on soft !!

So when you fear any loss of ride comfort why even think about about a 28 mm
monster bar? Even more swapping a front bar would take hours of labour.

It doesn't make any sense. ;)

When you try the stiffer setting you'll notice improvements in steering response
and turn in. The so often heard loss of traction is strictly of an advisory nature.
I even had no issues with the 28 mm front sway bar.
 

jeffreyj

Ready to race!
I know many guys recommend a rear sway only, but I strongly believe they are wrong.
I tried it all on my own: stock sways, 24 mm rear and 28 + 24 mm front and rear with
all possible settings. No doubt both bars was best by far.
Possibly most guys never tried both bars and they parrot half-whisdom on the forums.
A common misconception I believe.


To make things short: If you already have a 24 mm rear sway I strongly recommend
at least a 24, 25 or 26 mm front sway bar.

This REALLY makes me want to do the front, just worried about labor cost. I've managed to install all my other parts so far, this one just seems a bit tough for DIY though?
 

rs999

Go Kart Champion
I wouldn't call it "harshness". It's a kind of stiffness on some surfaces
when the road changes leaning to the left and then to the right.

You'll notice the same when you fit the 28 mm front bar and set this
to soft. It's just hours of labour for swapping the front bar, so keep
the 26 mm on front and feel free to swap the rear bar for a 24 mm
and set them to your liking.

To know your liking you need to try the possible settings on your own.
It just takes 10 min.

So where does the 24mm rear bar fit in my setup?

Before 26/22 hard hard or after 26/22 hard hard?

As I said I am going to try 26/22 S/H for a few weeks, then 26/22 H/H if not satisfied with roll.

Also, I'm guessing that when I go to 24 rear I should reset the 26 front to soft and go 26/24 S/S as start point to find my settings?
 
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