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Official Sway Bar Discussion Thread

torga

Autocross Newbie
Crazy how much opinions differ on this. I had a 24mm rsb and oem front bar for a while and I thought the car handled like complete shit. When I put a 26mm front bar on, instant go kart. That was before I went ham with the rest of the suspension, now it's just amazing.

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Can you elaborate on your thoughts about the handling when only replacing the rear ARB?
 

1ashchuckton

Go Kart Newbie
Sort of like what oil is better thread. Lots of opinions & different likes.

For my use, street driving it was a very nice improvement. I'm sure adding a front bar & doing a set of coil-overs would be great along with a nice alignment that added a couple of degrees negative camber in front. That would be great. Although on the street it would be a compromise I wouldn't want to live with.

I have gone through this on a few other cars & I turned them into fine track cars. Trouble was they were terrible to live with as daily drivers. Just this old guys .02.
 

ChrisAttebery

Go Kart Newbie
There's my reason for going with the 22mm H&R. If I don't like it I'm blaming you Jay. ;)

Crazy how much opinions differ on this. I had a 24mm rsb and oem front bar for a while and I thought the car handled like complete shit. When I put a 26mm front bar on, instant go kart. That was before I went ham with the rest of the suspension, now it's just amazing.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

theclutch

Ready to race!
Your car won't oversteer on an abrupt lift throttle in a corner? Maybe you weren't going fast enough. Just kidding..... ;)
Nope! :)

Crazy how much opinions differ on this. I had a 24mm rsb and oem front bar for a while and I thought the car handled like complete shit. When I put a 26mm front bar on, instant go kart. That was before I went ham with the rest of the suspension, now it's just amazing.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
It could be just your preference also.

034 Motorsport and Neuspeed made the RSB's I specified in my previous response as working in conjunction with the stock front sway bar. Given that this is their business (and supposed expertise), I would put more value in their judgement than the rest of us in the forums. Then why would H&R and others suggest a combination front and rear sway bar, one would ask? From my gathering, they're typically in conjunction with other modified suspension components. I was initially going with the H&R 26/24 but it's almost just amplifying the current front:rear ratio and making the car corner more flatly - which is nice if that's what you want, but still understeers flatly. My current setup (stock front and Neuspeed 28mm rear) still understeers but a lot less so.
 

jay745

track sl00t
Sort of like what oil is better thread. Lots of opinions & different likes.

For my use, street driving it was a very nice improvement. I'm sure adding a front bar & doing a set of coil-overs would be great along with a nice alignment that added a couple of degrees negative camber in front. That would be great. Although on the street it would be a compromise I wouldn't want to live with.

I have gone through this on a few other cars & I turned them into fine track cars. Trouble was they were terrible to live with as daily drivers. Just this old guys .02.
Yep, fine balance and it's very easy to ruin your street car. I'm way past that, I pretty much only drive it on the track nowadays.

There's my reason for going with the 22mm H&R. If I don't like it I'm blaming you Jay. ;)
Ha! Or just out a front bar on and go to a 24 in the rear, it's a dream.

Nope! :)



It could be just your preference also.

034 Motorsport and Neuspeed made the RSB's I specified in my previous response as working in conjunction with the stock front sway bar. Given that this is their business (and supposed expertise), I would put more value in their judgement than the rest of us in the forums. Then why would H&R and others suggest a combination front and rear sway bar, one would ask? From my gathering, they're typically in conjunction with other modified suspension components. I was initially going with the H&R 26/24 but it's almost just amplifying the current front:rear ratio and making the car corner more flatly - which is nice if that's what you want, but still understeers flatly. My current setup (stock front and Neuspeed 28mm rear) still understeers but a lot less so.
I'd firmly disagree that it understeers, but flatly. That's just not the case, the turn in is incredible, I don't have an issue at all with understeer

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jay745

track sl00t
Can you elaborate on your thoughts about the handling when only replacing the rear ARB?
It just felt unbalanced, going fast over 100 lane changes were all over the place before upgrading the front as well.

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ChrisAttebery

Go Kart Newbie
I got my H&R 22mm RSB today. I've been using a sway bar calculator to determine the relative strength compared to the stock RSB.

Here's the calculator:
http://www.gtsparkplugs.com/Sway-Bar-Calculator.html

I used the following measurements:
Width: 38"
Length of arm:
Stock 160mm (6.3")
H&R Low 170mm (6.7")
H&R High 150mm (5.9")

H&R 22mm should be 33% or 67% stiffer than stock.
H&R 24mm should be 82% or 136% stiffer.
Hotchkis 27mm (hollow) is 90%, 135% or 200% stiffer (according to their website).
034 25mm is 200% or 290% stiffer (According to their website).
 
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ChrisAttebery

Go Kart Newbie
I tried the H&R 22mm RSB for a couple weeks. It made a subtle difference to the car. It felt like it turned a bit better but it wasn't dramatic. IMHO that bar would pair up well with the stock front bar on a stock Golf or Beetle.

I found great deal on an 034 25.4mm rear sway bar and end links last week ($175). I figured for the price I could try it out. I got it installed on Friday morning.

I ran an AutoX on Saturday and along with the changes I made to the front suspension I feel like the car is well balanced. I could alter my lines by adjusting the throttle and got the slightest bit of off throttle oversteer when I was really pushing it. I never felt like the car was out of shape no matter how hard I pushed it.
 

theclutch

Ready to race!
Hate to break it to you... that's NOT going to give you much of a difference that you can feel. For RSB, you want the 034 25.4 mm solid #034-402-1003 or the Neuspeed 28mm hollow #2502283. Leave the front sway bar stock. I currently run stock height with the stock suspension. There is ZERO way that anyone can "snap oversteer" this with my current setup. Believe me, I tried. I have roughly 20 years of track events.

22mm H&R RSB is barely bigger than the stock which is 21.7mm.
I tried the H&R 22mm RSB for a couple weeks. It made a subtle difference to the car. It felt like it turned a bit better but it wasn't dramatic. IMHO that bar would pair up well with the stock front bar on a stock Golf or Beetle.

I found great deal on an 034 25.4mm rear sway bar and end links last week ($175). I figured for the price I could try it out. I got it installed on Friday morning. ....
Sorry dude... I tried to tell you. :( That "feeling" you have that it's a subtle difference could be just your wanting to feel a difference due to the money spent. :( If you still have the stock front sway bar, let us know what you think. It seems that the "best" setup would be increasing camber at the front and the 034 or Neuspeed setup (both provide the same stiffness) to get the desired effect. Good luck either way and hope you find what you like the best.
 

ChrisAttebery

Go Kart Newbie
Yes you did. It's fine.

I'm running -1.4 camber all around. I'm also getting more camber in the corners from the added caster on the SuperPro bushings. With the 034 bar in the stiffest position the car is balanced well.

I might add a little more camber and reduce the front toe for next season. I'll wait until I've run a dedicated set of autoX/track tires before I do anything else to the car.

Sorry dude... I tried to tell you. :( That "feeling" you have that it's a subtle difference could be just your wanting to feel a difference due to the money spent. :( If you still have the stock front sway bar, let us know what you think. It seems that the "best" setup would be increasing camber at the front and the 034 or Neuspeed setup (both provide the same stiffness) to get the desired effect. Good luck either way and hope you find what you like the best.
 

Mostic

Go Kart Champion
I had the Hotchiks 27mm F&R in my previous MKV and it was day and night different. I had them with Koni yellow sport kit and many other suspension modifications. I enjoyed them a lot and even a friend of mine who purchased them from me after selling my MKV, he liked them a lot too.
Now, I am evaluating the H&R AWD kit F24mm / R26mm and the SuperPro AWD 26mm or 24mm kit.
 

Mostic

Go Kart Champion
H&R sway bars arrived and installed the rear one









The handling differences are noticeable once installed the rear sway bar and drive for a while, simply is like you were walking and slipping without wearing shoes and you wears the right shoes.

the real problem I have is that the front sway bar came without the installation brackets so I have to remove it from the OEM bar and install it to the H&R one which I see something really bad! Any idea from where to buy the front sway brackets?
 

Mostic

Go Kart Champion
I just want to keep the OEM sway bar as it’s just in case. Any idea about the front brackets part number and from where to get it?
 

Short Bus

Drag Race Newbie
Just get a 1/2 inch drill bit and drill the bottom side of the bracket to release the nut from the front. Save the rubber bushings that come out and you’ll be able to use them again with the stock bar later.

Unfortunately the brackets aren’t available separate from the bar, it’s all considered to be one part for some reason.
 

ChrisAttebery

Go Kart Newbie
I've been doing a lot of reading on suspension set up and came across this post on the golfmk7 forum:
"What's interesting though is that everyone runs to a rear bar to induce more oversteer, while there have been some very successful teams that moved to much stiffer front bars on Mcstrut FWD cars. The reason is that front roll creates positive camber, and by reducing that roll you keep more of your negative camber intact as you go round a corner. This leads to more lateral grip up front and better rotation. Here's a good read on the matter: https://nasaspeed.news/tech/suspension/camber-matters-optimizing-track-performance-for-strut-suspension-cars/ "

In the article he suggests limiting roll to less than 2 degrees. It makes a lot of sense to me now that I've digested it. I looked at pictures from Laguna Seca last year and my car was rolling almost 4 degrees in turn 4 which is a ~65mph sweeper. It looks like I'd need to double the roll stiffness of the car to get below 2 degrees. I ordered an H&R 26mm FSB to go with the 034 25mm RSB. That combination should increase the overall stiffness of the car 2.375x (both bars on soft) to 3x (both bars on stiff) compared to the stock bars.
 
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kyoo

Ready to race!
i've read something similar and even employed the whole FSB thing on my evo. theory is that in maintains camber better on mcstrut cars. though that technically may be true, you don't get a whole lot of added grip from that, compared to how it will push you to understeer. i'm firmly back in the only RSB camp, and have considered going back to the stock FSB for the Evo. The way to have good camber on mcstrut cars is through caster, not thicker FSBs.

I ordered the 26mm H & R RSB for the golf r. vorshlag camber plates that will adjust caster for me and prob shoot for around 3 degrees of camber, since it's still a DD
 

kyoo

Ready to race!
okay - for those of you who got the vorshlag camber plates - did the springs fit the perches with ease? I think I got the wrong ones. It's not getting on the perch without damaging top hat, and the top hat is bigger than the OEM one, and there's really no other way this thing fits together..

IMG_20200212_185920.jpg
IMG_20200212_184114.jpg

IMG_20200212_184417.jpg
 

ChrisAttebery

Go Kart Newbie
I ran 60 laps at Laguna Seca yesterday. I started with the H&R 26mm RSB and 034 25.4mm RSB on their stiff settings. I was getting a lot of lift throttle oversteer and the stability control was stepping in. After the second session I moved the rear bar to soft (roughly equal to the H&R 24mm RSB on stiff). After that the car was balanced really well. I could adjust entry/mid corner oversteer with throttle. It still had a bit of lift throttle oversteer, but it wasn't nearly as obtrusive.
 
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