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Water/Meth on APR

yee_ti

New member
Hey guys! I’ve been stalking the forums for about a year now while I’ve been doing more and more to my GTI, but I haven’t been able to find this topic covered well in the brief searches I did on vwvortex and golfmk6.
So I am running APR Stage 2 on a 91 file because that is all that is available in Arizona and I don’t want the E85 hassle. I just bought a snow stage 2 wmi kit because I like the increased reliability water meth gives in high ambient temps, and the performance bump you can get. My question is when I add program file switching to my tune to take advantage of the increased octane, I was initially planning on just running a 93 file and enjoying a good little bump in torque and power on the injection setup. I understand that a 50/50 water meth mix like washer fluid will give you about 114 octane with 91 AKI fuel, maybe an obvious question but will i get any performance decreases by “only” using the 93 file on meth? If so is the 104 map what I need to use and reserve the pulls for 104 and just use the spray in the 91 map for cooler temps? If that is the case, just using the 93 map is the goal for me because the car is my daily. I don’t like the responsibility of running the 104 map lol, so if there is a performance decrease by using 50/50 should I shoot more for 80/20? Just water injection? My other question is just in general what water meth actually does to the mechanic of fuel burning/combustion and how that reduces the amount of timing needed to pull, and how it will effect my performance directly outside of the much lower chance of detonation.
 

jay745

track sl00t
You'll get a nice performance increase from wmi on a 93 tune from the lower iat and increase in octane. Play around with the mixture ratio, I run about 60%meth and 40 water and have found that to be the best for me. Pure water won't atomize and you want some meth to hit your valves to keep them clean.
 

GIACUser

Master Wallet Mechanic
I live in a similar climate (lots of triple digit desert heat) and I have used W/M on my last 4 cars to combat the heat and on my most recent car MKV GTI to daily a 100octane file (91 in my tank). Ran it that way for about 4 years (336 whp on K04). Methanol by itself is 116 octane. I ran 50/50 by volume and ran the tune with zero timing loss in all but the most extreme heat and then I only lost a couple of points ( could have sprayed more to take care of it) It works great. The ECU can pull 12 degrees of timing (that is a lot) and if that isn't enough it can go to limp mode. I was at track, running 100oct file and my w/m system got plugged up (zero flow) on a hot day. Ran the whole session and barely noticed it. ECU just adjusts. It isn't limitless but running with a stock or in my case K04 turbo it provides enough protection. When I rebuilt and went more aggressive (480whp) then I did build in an additional failsafe as I was running 100% Methanol and a lot of it so I was quite dependent on it for fueling.

You could run either file with 50/50. Get 100% methanol and mix with distilled water for w/m. Put a few drops of red food coloring in mix so you can spot leaks.
 

yee_ti

New member
Thanks for the replies :) sounds like I’ll add the 100+ map to the tune as well and give it a shot. I’ll play around with mixes too, does the GTI have a ping sensor? Is that how it automatically pulls timing as the conditions get more adverse? If so then the car is even more reliable than even I give it credit for
 

GIACUser

Master Wallet Mechanic
Thanks for the replies :) sounds like I’ll add the 100+ map to the tune as well and give it a shot. I’ll play around with mixes too, does the GTI have a ping sensor? Is that how it automatically pulls timing as the conditions get more adverse? If so then the car is even more reliable than even I give it credit for

It has a number of sensors monitoring conditions, 2 knock(ping) sensors among them. It is quite sophisticated.

I am assuming you are on stock turbo?
Keep in mind nozzle placement.
Cooling - farther away from intake manifold allow mix to completely evap providing max cooling.
Fueling - place nozzle somewhere post throttle body to get droplets into the cyl (use a throttle body plate)
You will want both - run one nozzle in a bung you insert into tubing just after intercooler - second one in throttle body plate

To run a file that exceeds your in tank fueling, such as the 100+ APR file you will be using full force of w/m. So you are both cooling the intake air temps (condensing air, to get more oxygen per cu. in so you can run more fuel. And you are keeping cyl cool to discourage knock as well you are increasing overall octane to make it harder for your fuel mix to ignite. It works great, you will be amazed.

To properly dial it in you will need to do a little logging. I use Ross-Tech VCDS cable/software. There is a sweet spot if you will when it comes to spraying. Too little and you are leaving power on the table and too much and you are knocking power off the table too. I usually start with a bit of knock and turn up things until my log just get to zero timing pull. Happy to answer any questions when you get around to installation.

For your 100+ install I would start with a
#3 (175ml) nozzle located just after exit of intercooler and...
#2 (100ml) nozzle located in throttle body plate
Note- Also on hand have an additional #3 nozzle in case the #2 is not enough
Boost settings - start at 8 psi full by 15 psi

You can usually buy a 5 gal tin of 100% methanol at motorcycle shops, karting shops etc. Or if you are in Phoenix area you can just go to VP racing fuel dealers.
 

MrFancypants

Autocross Champion
I am assuming you are on stock turbo?
Keep in mind nozzle placement.
Cooling - farther away from intake manifold allow mix to completely evap providing max cooling.
Fueling - place nozzle somewhere post throttle body to get droplets into the cyl (use a throttle body plate)
You will want both - run one nozzle in a bung you insert into tubing just after intercooler - second one in throttle body plate

Thanks for posting this, as it confirms what I’ve been reading about nozzle placement as I research and consider an injection setup. I’m not looking for an octane boost though, all I want is a charge temp reduction that allows me to keep the stock intercooler. What I’ve gathered is what you’ve said, if I run water only I need to push the nozzle close to the exit of the intercooler to give the water space to work.
 

GIACUser

Master Wallet Mechanic
Thanks for posting this, as it confirms what I’ve been reading about nozzle placement as I research and consider an injection setup. I’m not looking for an octane boost though, all I want is a charge temp reduction that allows me to keep the stock intercooler. What I’ve gathered is what you’ve said, if I run water only I need to push the nozzle close to the exit of the intercooler to give the water space to work.

The good thing about Methanol is that it also accelerates the evap which is why it all works so well.
 

MrFancypants

Autocross Champion
The good thing about Methanol is that it also accelerates the evap which is why it all works so well.
Yeah, ultimately it'll come down to testing and logging. My goal is to be able to run a full 20-25 minute lapping session in the middle of summer without timing being pulled, and if I have to use methanol then so be it.
 

GIACUser

Master Wallet Mechanic
Yeah, ultimately it'll come down to testing and logging. My goal is to be able to run a full 20-25 minute lapping session in the middle of summer without timing being pulled, and if I have to use methanol then so be it.

I had the same goal and accomplished it, so I can tell you first hand it can be done. I ran AAA Speedway (135mph) track sessions in hot weather triple digit heat. W/M works very well when it is dialed in. My car ran so well at the track.
 

yee_ti

New member
It has a number of sensors monitoring conditions, 2 knock(ping) sensors among them. It is quite sophisticated.

I am assuming you are on stock turbo?
Keep in mind nozzle placement.
Cooling - farther away from intake manifold allow mix to completely evap providing max cooling.
Fueling - place nozzle somewhere post throttle body to get droplets into the cyl (use a throttle body plate)
You will want both - run one nozzle in a bung you insert into tubing just after intercooler - second one in throttle body plate

To run a file that exceeds your in tank fueling, such as the 100+ APR file you will be using full force of w/m. So you are both cooling the intake air temps (condensing air, to get more oxygen per cu. in so you can run more fuel. And you are keeping cyl cool to discourage knock as well you are increasing overall octane to make it harder for your fuel mix to ignite. It works great, you will be amazed.

To properly dial it in you will need to do a little logging. I use Ross-Tech VCDS cable/software. There is a sweet spot if you will when it comes to spraying. Too little and you are leaving power on the table and too much and you are knocking power off the table too. I usually start with a bit of knock and turn up things until my log just get to zero timing pull. Happy to answer any questions when you get around to installation.

For your 100+ install I would start with a
#3 (175ml) nozzle located just after exit of intercooler and...
#2 (100ml) nozzle located in throttle body plate
Note- Also on hand have an additional #3 nozzle in case the #2 is not enough
Boost settings - start at 8 psi full by 15 psi

You can usually buy a 5 gal tin of 100% methanol at motorcycle shops, karting shops etc. Or if you are in Phoenix area you can just go to VP racing fuel dealers.
Yes I am on a stock turbo, the meth kit I got comes with a #3 (157mL) nozzle and a #5 (375mL) nozzle, I also got the throttle body plate and a gauge hood as it comes with the VC-50 gauge. I am in the Phoenix area and I called Goodspeed and they said they charge $200 an hour to dyno tune the meth but I feel like I can handle that myself with some familiarization with vagcom and a little reading about meth setup
 

GIACUser

Master Wallet Mechanic
Yes I am on a stock turbo, the meth kit I got comes with a #3 (157mL) nozzle and a #5 (375mL) nozzle, I also got the throttle body plate and a gauge hood as it comes with the VC-50 gauge. I am in the Phoenix area and I called Goodspeed and they said they charge $200 an hour to dyno tune the meth but I feel like I can handle that myself with some familiarization with vagcom and a little reading about meth setup

Dyno tuning would be overkill. Yes you can easily do your own data logging with a laptop and vagcom. Ideally you log 4th gear runs from 2500rpm to redline. Needless to say you need room to do this. The 4th gear is necessary to put turbo under load. Manual tranny it is easier to do. DSG it is hard to get it to hold the gear if you don't have a TCU tune. If DSG running on stock tune you just have to roll into it and keep from putting pedal to floor and engaging the drop down detent that causes tranny to kick down a gear.

I put up a short video on logging a few years back for this purpose - LINK

For these runs you will be logging rpm and timing per cyl.
 

Injen1us

Drag Race Newbie
This thread is making me think that I should run my 93 map with w/m... Been doing 91 only and using the meth as a cooling agent
 
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