VW GTI MKVI Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVI Forum / VW GTI Forum - Golfmk6.com

VW GTI MKVI Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVI Forum / VW GTI Forum - Golfmk6.com (https://www.golfmk6.com/forums/index.php)
-   Mechanical Maintenance: Break-in / Oil & Fluids / Servicing (https://www.golfmk6.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=37)
-   -   Help request- Dead GTI- P2187, mulitple cylinder misfire codes (https://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114802)

cwininger 01-15-2018 03:25 PM

Help request- Dead GTI- P2187, mulitple cylinder misfire codes
Hey guys, first time poster and first time GTI owner here. i could use some input. i have a stock 2010 GTI with 75k on the clock.

the other day it was running kinda weird- while coming to a stop and at low idle the rpms would drop and it acted like it wanted to stall out. i drove it pretty hard and it ran fine under throttle and at higher rpms. didn't throw any codes though.

the next morning i went to start it up and it chugged a few times, started and ran really rough for a couple of seconds, and then stalled. I tried to start it multiple times but the same symptoms kept occurring. Couldn't get it to stay running. even starting and applying throttle to up the rpms wouldn't keep it running. After a few attempts i hooked it up to my obdII scanner and the torque app and it was throwing a P2187 (System too lean at idle) code, and misfire codes on three different cylinders, and the "random misfires detected" code.

I thought it might be the pcv valve, so i replaced it. no change. incidentally, i had similar symptoms a couple months ago and a new pcv valve fixed them. the previous owner had replaced the original pcv valve at around 60k early last year. so this is the third pcv valve on this car in the last year or so.

I checked the intake components looking for obvious holes and leaks, but didn't really see anything. I thought it might be coils and plugs, but it seems strange that i would get misfires on three cylinders all at once out of the blue.

one other item of note, it's pretty cold here in michigan- single digits. so that's probably not helping, but there's no way that's the cause as it's been really cold for a month and it's run fine for the most part.

does anyone have any input on what else it could be or what I should check out before I have this thing towed to a shop? thanks in advance for your guys' help.

1ashchuckton 01-15-2018 06:05 PM

I have no idea, so this is my best guess. You have loads of carbon on your valves that need to be cleaned off. The carbon issue seems to mostly show up on a cold start.

cwininger 01-22-2018 08:10 AM

i got it in to my mechanic. he started with new plugs and coils and no change. it's still running terrible, stalls after a few seconds and is throwing the same codes.

he checked the timing and it's good. did a compression test and he's getting fluctuating readings, but he's not sure about it because he can't get it up to operating temp to get accurate compression readings.

he did a full electrical diag and couldn't find any problems there either.

he thinks there is some internal engine problem- maybe a bent valve, stuck valve, bent camshaft or something along those lines. but he says he wont know until he tears the head off and starts looking around.

75k on this car with a perfect service history....SMH

lukesGTI 01-26-2018 10:59 AM

Per Ross tech
Possible Causes
Injectors leak/blocked
Air Intake Leak (after MAF)
Exhaust Leak
Possible Solutions
Check Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)
Check Injector(s)
Check Fuel Pump
Check Activated Charcoal Filter (EVAP) System Solenoid Valve 1 (N80)


CHerna 01-26-2018 11:27 AM

75K, might be prone to carbon build up. Has this car ever had carbon cleaning done? If not you want to look into it. I see you're in SE Michigan also, try giving Steve's European in Waterford a call, and explain what's going on.

Good luck OP

lukesGTI 01-27-2018 04:51 PM

Let us know if you fix the problem.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

cwininger 01-30-2018 11:13 AM

So here's where I'm at:
i suspet the chain tensioner failed and the car jumped timing on a cold startup. when my mechanic pulled the timing chain cover it was clear the cams were off several teeth. but that's just a guess based on symptoms.
pretty much what this epic thread is all about.

Here's the work i had done over the last two weeks since this issue first started:
-plugs and coils all replaced.
-pcv valve replaced (again) because my mechanic suspected it was defective as there was a minor whistle coming from that area
-smoke test done, no intake leaks anywhere.
-compression test with good readings on all cylinders at operating temp
-full timing chain job- tensioner, chain, guides etc. the original chain was stretched pretty bad. he triple checked the timing and is sure it's on.
-after the timing job was done and the engine re-timed, the car would run but was still misfiring and throwing a
p0016 code (cam position code), multiple misfires, which lead him the camshaft bridge failure TSB
-he replaced the cam bridge as the screen had blown out and he was concerned the valves in the original bridge weren't supplying sufficient oil to the cams. during the replacement he performed the pressure test prescribed in the camshaft bridge tsb, and it passed.

something's still not right, and my mechanic fears there's a bent or damaged intake valve(s), or maybe a warped cam which is causing the p2187 engine too lean code and the p0016 code. he suggested i take it and drive it for a couple of days to see if it would self-correct. i know that's a long shot but i probably don't have anything to lose at this point.

the car is drive-able and it's better than it was. but still messed up. here's the current behavior-
-it's still throwing the p0016, p2187, and multiple misfire codes.
-i started it once yesterday and it idled really rough for three or four minutes, threw these codes, and then the idle stabilized. i drove it about 20 miles and at normal rpms it ran pretty smooth. but any heavy throttle would cause stuttering and intermittent check engine light flashes. it also seemed to struggle getting going from a stop at idle.
-this morning i started it up and it fired right up without a rough idle. it ran at 1k rpms for a minute then stabilized at 800rpm like normal. i did notice a light whistling sound from the top of the engine, so i'm not sure if that's a pcv issue or just a random sound.
-i drove it about 10 miles, and it ran pretty smooth, better than yesterday. under hard acceleration it still stumbles, but not as bad as yesterday. i drove in sport mode and it pulled ok, but i didn't really push it super hard. the hesitation at idle from a stopped position is still there, but not as bad.
-i'm pretty confused about the symptoms at this point... not really sure what to think.

my mechanic is now suggesting i bring it in for a carbon cleaning now as a last shot prior to taking the head off. to my knowledge this car has never had a carbon cleaning. so i guess it's worth a shot.

i've also read some stuff about the cam sensor, which as far as i know was not replaced during the timing job.

i'm at a loss at this point. i may try to get it in to another shop for a second opinion.

i'm $2800 into maintenance on this car after only 2500 miles and 10 weeks of ownership,:mad: and looking at a possible valve job or even engine replacement. i think i really need to try to cut my losses and get this thing running good enough to trade it in and get it out of my life...

cwininger 02-09-2018 09:30 AM


Originally Posted by CHerna (Post 2568631)
75K, might be prone to carbon build up. Has this car ever had carbon cleaning done? If not you want to look into it. I see you're in SE Michigan also, try giving Steve's European in Waterford a call, and explain what's going on.

Good luck OP

so here's an update. i took the car into a second shop for a second opinion (steve's european as suggested by @CHerna) the second shop is night and day better than the first.
they accumulated a long list of stuff the first shop screwed up.

#1, the timing was off a tooth on both cams. the first shop swore up and down that it was right and that the problems were engine related. guess they were wrong. turns out, they didn't seat the lower crank gears together properly when putting everything back together after the timing job. the lower crank gears then slipped during startup and the timing jumped. that damage was what was causing the p0016 cam correlation code. so i had to have a new lower crank gear and harmonic balancer installed.

#2, the new cam bridge the first shop put on was all effed up. it looks like the mechanic used vice grips or channel locks to turn the cam shafts during the timing adjustment- the teeth on the tool he used chewed up the camshaft ends where the bridge slides on. so it appears that when the brand new bridge with perfectly machined openings wouldn't slide nicely onto the camshaft ends (it should take zero effort to slide it on), he just beat it on with a hammer and it went on a little cockeyed. there are hammer marks on the outside of the cam bridge, bad score marks on the inner races of the cam bridge where it slides over the camshafts, and the camshaft ends were all scored up. and there was fine metal in the oil pan, probably from this (more on the oil pan later). so Steve's had to order and install a second new cam bridge. they were able to clean up the camshaft ends with emery cloth so they are nice and smooth again, so that saved me some money.

#3, the first shop used, re-used, and re-used again nearly all of the torque-to-spec one time use hardware involved in the job. including the crank bolt, which should be replaced for sure. a lot of the old hardware is damaged- rounded off, out, or mushroomed- as if the first shop didn't have the right bits or something. so Steve's replaced all of the hardware that should have been replaced the first time.

#4, the lower timing cover had been removed and reinstalled it sounds like 3 times while the first shop was trying to figure out the p0016 and misfire codes. instead of cleaning the seal surface each time before reinstall, they just kept adding silicone sealant. There is now so much sealant that it has oozed into the inner edge of the cover. There was so much excess that Steve's was concerned that silicone may have got down into the oil pan and collected at the oil intake screen. So they dropped the oil pan and guess what... there was silicone stuck the oil pickup screen. and that's when they found the metal shavings, most likely from issue #2 (the chewed up cam shafts spinning in the cam bridge races)

so i got the car back on wednesday and it's running much better. no p0016 code, which the first shop couldn't get to go away and assured me meant internal engine damage and a need to pull the head off to look around. it's still misfiring, but my guess is it's the crappy aftermarket coils and plugs the first shop put in for me (which they charged $53 per coil and $22 per plug). and it's throwing an air intake leak code, which could be an actual leak or related to the misfires. i have genuine r8 coils on order and i'll see how the car responds when i put those in.

the service manager at Steve's gave me a 25 page document including a detailed report of their findings along with pictures of every single thing that was screwed up (they even used arrows and notes on the pictures and before/after photos). he also sent it to me in a pdf. i also have all the old damaged parts that were replaced. so i have some pretty good ammo to take to the first shop.

my plan is to present the evidence to them and give them a chance to fully refund their work as well as reimburse me for all of the extra work Steve's had to do to fix their mess. if they don't cooperate i'll threaten small claims court and an long, exhaustive 1-star review on google, facebook and yelp.

this has been a total nightmare. wish i would have known about steve's before now. that's an awesome shop.

CHerna 02-09-2018 10:09 AM

H O L Y shit OP. That first shop sounds like a disaster, with the slightest idea of what they are doing. I'm glad Steve's was able to correct most of their F-up's, and provide a detailed report. Steve and his team do great, honest work. Reason why they have such a great reputation. I hope you iron out the last of your issues and have it running 100%.

Honestly, fuck that other shop. I'll help you with an additional shitty review if they won't reimburse you.

Tony48 02-09-2018 10:11 AM

Holy shit. That previous shop really screwed things up. I can't believe some of their terrible practices. Freaking neanderthals chewing up the camshafts when they can easily be turned using an 18mm wrench. Sounds like a nightmare but I'm glad you got everything taken care of. Best of luck getting refunded from shop #1.

damagi123 02-09-2018 10:34 AM

bad shit man. sorry youre going through that. Would it be worth it at some point to take it to a dealer? I have one dealership thats like 45 min away but that has a really well known master tech that is super good at solving odd problems. He helped me out when nobody else could on a boost flutter issue.

CHerna 02-09-2018 12:05 PM

I think OP's car is like 90% now. I think he picked it up and intends to do the last few things (coils, plugs, investigate intake) on his own.

aj_law 02-09-2018 03:00 PM

From the sound of it, kinda surprised the second shop didn't find some duct tape holding engine internals together.

Good luck with the sitch, OP.

cwininger 02-10-2018 11:28 PM

i got the r8 coils and new ngk plugs in today. that solved the misfires under heavy throttle. those were almost certainly caused by the crappy aftermarket coils and $3 denso plugs they put in it.

it's still throwing a random misfire code (but no individual cylinder misfires) and there's a p2128 intake leak code that's been there from the start. but that's probably just a legit intake leak somewhere. i'll get it back in to steve's for a smoke test next week.

but honestly, the car runs and drives like it did the day i bought it now. i'm seeing codes on my obdII scanner, but no check engine light.

now i just have to fix the newly discovered cracked and leaking rear wiper hose that's spraying fluid down into the hatch, soaking the tail light wiring harnesses and shorting out my whole wiper system (and probably causing the esp error i get on startups now...)

if it ever stops snowing i'll get it back out on the road and beat the hell out of it like i originally intended when i bought it three months ago.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:08 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.