Big Turbo Discussion Thread #2

A3-Owner said:

My results. 340 WHP and 320 Wheel Torque. High 13s in the 1/4 mile. 0 to 60 mph 4.7. What makes me sad is that I got the same times on an APR stage 2 setup. My APR stage 3 setup ran to 60 in 4 seconds and 12.5 in the 1/4 mile. My car is AWD and a DSG.

I found out that a CTS Boss 3071r Gen 2 with a Nostrum HPFP and ZZP injectors and TTRS LPFP and a Torqbyte PM4 on 26 to 29 PSI measured by a analog boost sensor on a P3 gauge can't make over 400 WHP. Before this car made 375 WHP on ZZP injectors on the stock HPFP with an APR stage 3 kit on a UM tune.

Shop and UM say the car is done. Guess I am stuck and struck out on this build setup. Hoped I could get 400 wheel but I guess I have a laggy K04 setup based on dyno and straight line acceleration numbers. Find a build that works and copy that. I will need to find a way to enjoy this setup.

Click to expand...

So after having a few weeks to think it over, it hit me, the engine was heat soaked during these times. I feel like an idiot not thinking about it.

The first three dyno runs were done trying to get the dyno in the right mode and the numbers of 343/320 was on the fourth run. We were in a time crunch so we didn't wait for the car to cool down.

On the drag strip, I sat in line for 20 mins on hot asphalt so the engine must have been heat soaked. The engine was idling most of that time.

The turbo is larger and is more laggy.

The transmission slips more clutch due to the tune or more torque so that adds delay.

The car at upper twenty PSI is very fast to me at 1000 feet elevation when you get the turbo to spool up. I know for sure it has more power at this elevation then Denver.

I will keep learning and seeing how we can get more power if possible.

Once I have the answers I need I will drop this.

GIACUser said:

Well if you only have a 3 bar sensor your ECU can't see more than that so around 29psi is all your MAP can see above atmospheric pressure so even if you are running 40psi it will still report back 29psi. Your analog sensor does not have that limitation and reports directly back to P3 the accurate psi (up to 80psi) when calibrated. Needless to say, your logs will be affected by this limitation as well.

What are you using for boost control?
Do you have the .63?
Which manifold are you using?

Also, I think you have done a good job setting yourself up for making serious power but you haven't finished the job. Plenty of potential left. Keep in mind you chose a larger turbo for our size motor. That translates to a powerband that will occur in the latter part of the rpm range and it will likely fall off pretty hard in the lower rpm range. And it will tend to be a more on/off situation..... not much, not much, not much, then explosive power. Great for drag racing, scaring the crap out of unsuspecting passengers. Keeping it in the powerband means driving it and keeping it in top third of rpm range. Pretty much all in.

To extract the power, you will need to move forward and run something else instead of 91 or add something to it or to assist it. And of course proper custom tuning.

Click to expand...

What are you using for boost control? Stock waste gate.
Do you have the .63?Yes
Which manifold are you using?The CTS Boss 600 kit says it is .63 on their site and if you got to their site and pull up the kit for the MK6 you can see the manifold.

You are right in saying this turbo is going to have different characteristics. I can already tell that. I need to set my expectations to this turbo.

Going any mixture of ethanol with this engine will be a big hurdle. I will have to ship the car to UM to get them to tune with the larger Nostrum Injectors I have. There is no flex fuel product for this car like for the Mk5/MK7 so the engine can't change its tune based on lower ethanol content on the fly.

I see others have a 4 bar sensor and E85 on a few build threads. I will find out what I can about using a 4 bar sensor.

A3-Owner said:

What are you using for boost control? Stock waste gate.
Do you have the .63?Yes
Which manifold are you using?The CTS Boss 600 kit says it is .63 on their site and if you got to their site and pull up the kit for the MK6 you can see the manifold.

You are right in saying this turbo is going to have different characteristics. I can already tell that. I need to set my expectations to this turbo.

Going any mixture of ethanol with this engine will be a big hurdle. I will have to ship the car to UM to get them to tune with the larger Nostrum Injectors I have. There is no flex fuel product for this car like for the Mk5/MK7 so the engine can't change its tune based on lower ethanol content on the fly.

I see others have a 4 bar sensor and E85 on a few build threads. I will find out what I can about using a 4 bar sensor.

Click to expand...

Consider using a water meth system if this is a daily driven car. E85 works to make power but it isn't always available wherever you go and mileage goes WAY down. And you can just build on the fueling system you already have but any increase in power no matter how you choose to fuel it will require tuning.

I have a similar sized turbo EFR7163 and it will make about 360whp on 91 and I will use that tune for general driving and trips. I have an Aquamist water meth system running 100% M1 methanol with 5 jets. Although we have not gotten it tuned yet it should get me into the mid 400"s. Though the turbo is capable of 500+ it would take E85, which I may also do by adding a 5th or even 6th injector. The straight 91 tune, easy and convenient and with normal injectors the car runs stock like. Add meth and get into mid 400's for a cool running track car. If I feel the need to drag race then I will go all out with E85, which would run too hot for my usual trackdays (road course).

I have used w/m on a number of my forced induction cars with great results.

With water meth your tuner can be much more aggressive and probably give you a wider power band, big increase in the midrange and top end.

Talk with your tuner about your goals and approach so you are both on the same page before you get started. A number of approaches will help you reach your goal so you have choices. I don't know anything about the Nostrum setup but if they are just large injectors to replace your current 4 primary fuel injectors, make sure that aren't so big that you can't tune for 91 oct fuel when you want to run that etc.

GIACUser said:

Consider using a water meth system if this is a daily driven car. E85 works to make power but it isn't always available wherever you go and mileage goes WAY down. And you can just build on the fueling system you already have but any increase in power no matter how you choose to fuel it will require tuning.

I have a similar sized turbo EFR7163 and it will make about 360whp on 91 and I will use that tune for general driving and trips. I have an Aquamist water meth system running 100% M1 methanol with 5 jets. Although we have not gotten it tuned yet it should get me into the mid 400"s. Though the turbo is capable of 500+ it would take E85, which I may also do by adding a 5th or even 6th injector. The straight 91 tune, easy and convenient and with normal injectors the car runs stock like. Add meth and get into mid 400's for a cool running track car. If I feel the need to drag race then I will go all out with E85, which would run too hot for my usual trackdays (road course).

I have used w/m on a number of my forced induction cars with great results.

With water meth your tuner can be much more aggressive and probably give you a wider power band, big increase in the midrange and top end.

Talk with your tuner about your goals and approach so you are both on the same page before you get started. A number of approaches will help you reach your goal so you have choices. I don't know anything about the Nostrum setup but if they are just large injectors to replace your current 4 primary fuel injectors, make sure that aren't so big that you can tune for 91 oct fuel when you want to run that etc.

Click to expand...

That is great information. If I tuned for w/m, I will want a more intelligent system. The Nostrum injectors are very large.

Just need to get the overboost resolved due to being closer to sea level. I imagine that is a wastegate setting.

For where the car is, it cooks, turns well, has good brakes, transmissions shifts well, power band is smooth.

Car is faster to 60 at current elevation(did one launch), low 4 seconds. Clutches slipped in first, second and third gear so that makes me think the DSG is seeing higher numbers then the tune was setup for in CO.

It is more power then my Stage 3 setup and is a different power band.

Tuner and shop did good work on this build. I can be that annoying customer asking questions and checking on status. Hopefully I have not annoyed them too much.

A3-Owner said:

That is great information. If I tuned for w/m, I will want a more intelligent system. The Nostrum injectors are very large.

Just need to get the overboost resolved due to being closer to sea level. I imagine that is a wastegate setting.

For where the car is, it cooks, turns well, has good brakes, transmissions shifts well, power band is smooth.

Car is faster to 60 at current elevation(did one launch), low 4 seconds. Clutches slipped in first, second and third gear so that makes me think the DSG is seeing higher numbers then the tune was setup for in CO.

It is more power then my Stage 3 setup and is a different power band.

Tuner and shop did good work on this build. I can be that annoying customer asking questions and checking on status. Hopefully I have not annoyed them too much.

Click to expand...

Hopefully clutches aren't slipping vs tires losing grip because of torque. You can verify by putting it on dyno. There is an expected correlation between boost and torque. If you see boost going up but torque not following trans is slipping. None of the off the shelf DSG tunes offer additional clamping force but you can get a custom DSG tune that will and if you clutch pack is still in decent shape, may take care of your issue.

I put in a clutch pack, LSD and also added a full DSG cooling system in prep for the power. You can put in a Dodson racing clutch pack but they wanted like 2700 for the clutch pack, would love to have done that but at the time just could not bring myself to dump an additional 2K into the trans after already dumping almost 5K into it.

Cost of clutch pack is about 2K installed parts and labor. I didn't notice if you have an LSD but if you don't, get one, makes a HUGE difference and if you have to do tranny then it is a perfect time to put one in.

If you go w/m Aquamist is the one to use and would be classified as an intelligent system compared to Snow, Devilsown etc. Read about it on their website.

Do yall think a used ATP gt3071r kit is worth $2000? The full kit with external wastegate, intake, downpipe...not the stock location kit.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

SC_MK6 said:

Do yall think a used ATP gt3071r kit is worth $2000? The full kit with external wastegate, intake, downpipe...not the stock location kit.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

The worst part in ATP kits is their exhaust manifold. You should plan to replace it by another high flow exhaust manifold.

SC_MK6 said:

Do yall think a used ATP gt3071r kit is worth $2000? The full kit with external wastegate, intake, downpipe...not the stock location kit.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

I think it worth it considering the cost of other options. The log manifold is not as horrible are people make it out to be. It’s definitely not the best, but it will get you 400whp no problem as long as you have other supporting mods and can supply the fuel to get you there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mostic said:

The worst part in ATP kits is their exhaust manifold. You should plan to replace it by another high flow exhaust manifold.

Click to expand...

Yea that's what i hear. I think I'll still get plenty of enjoyment out of it regardless.

ksandman said:

I think it worth it considering the cost of other options. The log manifold is not as horrible are people make it out to be. It’s definitely not the best, but it will get you 400whp no problem as long as you have other supporting mods and can supply the fuel to get you there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

I'd be perfectly happy if I was close to that for the same price I paid for my k04 a couple years ago. We'll see if the sale goes through first. Appreciate the replies.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

b

A3-Owner said:

That is great information. If I tuned for w/m, I will want a more intelligent system. The Nostrum injectors are very large.

Just need to get the overboost resolved due to being closer to sea level. I imagine that is a wastegate setting.

For where the car is, it cooks, turns well, has good brakes, transmissions shifts well, power band is smooth.

Car is faster to 60 at current elevation(did one launch), low 4 seconds. Clutches slipped in first, second and third gear so that makes me think the DSG is seeing higher numbers then the tune was setup for in CO.

It is more power then my Stage 3 setup and is a different power band.

Tuner and shop did good work on this build. I can be that annoying customer asking questions and checking on status. Hopefully I have not annoyed them too much.

Click to expand...

You do not need clutches in a dq250, just a good tune that corresponds with your ecu tune. The gears will let go before the clutches, you can see it on mk7s and I have stripped an 02q and dq250. DQ250 will hold up to ~700nm of tq.

If you want more than that FFE has gears or dq500

Also my Aquamist setup will be for sale in about a month and so will my Sirhc boost control with VR conditioner and 2x relays

GIACUser said:

Hopefully clutches aren't slipping vs tires losing grip because of torque. You can verify by putting it on dyno. There is an expected correlation between boost and torque. If you see boost going up but torque not following trans is slipping. None of the off the shelf DSG tunes offer additional clamping force but you can get a custom DSG tune that will and if you clutch pack is still in decent shape, may take care of your issue.

I put in a clutch pack, LSD and also added a full DSG cooling system in prep for the power. You can put in a Dodson racing clutch pack but they wanted like 2700 for the clutch pack, would love to have done that but at the time just could not bring myself to dump an additional 2K into the trans after already dumping almost 5K into it.

Cost of clutch pack is about 2K installed parts and labor. I didn't notice if you have an LSD but if you don't, get one, makes a HUGE difference and if you have to do tranny then it is a perfect time to put one in.

If you go w/m Aquamist is the one to use and would be classified as an intelligent system compared to Snow, Devilsown etc. Read about it on their website.

Click to expand...

Thanks again for the great feedback. I do have a custom DSG tune. I will talk with the tuner. I am learning a lot on this thread. Your build thread is great.

Through a shop from a long time ago, I heard my tuner doesn't like DSG clutch packs and doesn't think they are needed and they get in his way.

I will get the car on the dyno soon.

My tuner updated the tune and got the overboosting from the lower elevation taken care of. 29 PSI on 91 octane. Local shop owner's butt dyno thought 360-380 WHP. Tune seems a bit smoother now. It drives very well around town with the lag it has. It drives the way you mentioned. Great for giving passengers a fun time. Overall I am happy with the way car turned out. The suspension is well done and the brakes are good with a NQSBBK setup. Need new coilovers and want to do camber plates.

I have not done any launches to see if how that is. I thought it was slipping because if you watch videos of clutch slips, you see the RPM gauge slow down for a moment in time and that is what I was seeing when I did my only launch at this elevation.

I will look into a LSD. I see you have a Mfactory. Like them?

My shop advised to look at Peloquin. I would love to get a rear LSD if we didn't have that dumb ring gear in the diff.

I am also looking into external oil and DSG coolers and the Tyrol radiator (1150?!). Local shop is writing up quotes for me.

I want to make this a weekend track car. Tracks that have long straights. I did auto X for a few years and that was fun.

U-20T said:

b

You do not need clutches in a dq250, just a good tune that corresponds with your ecu tune. The gears will let go before the clutches, you can see it on mk7s and I have stripped an 02q and dq250. DQ250 will hold up to ~700nm of tq.

If you want more than that FFE has gears or dq500

Also my Aquamist setup will be for sale in about a month and so will my Sirhc boost control with VR conditioner and 2x relays

Click to expand...

My tuner said something very similar.

I don't think I will go high enough powerwise to go beyond the limits of the DQ250.

I will check out your sale on your Aqaumist setup when you put it.

A3-Owner said:

Thanks again for the great feedback. I do have a custom DSG tune. I will talk with the tuner. I am learning a lot on this thread. Your build thread is great.

Through a shop from a long time ago, I heard my tuner doesn't like DSG clutch packs and doesn't think they are needed and they get in his way.

I will get the car on the dyno soon.

My tuner updated the tune and got the overboosting from the lower elevation taken care of. 29 PSI on 91 octane. Local shop owner's butt dyno thought 360-380 WHP. Tune seems a bit smoother now. It drives very well around town with the lag it has. It drives the way you mentioned. Great for giving passengers a fun time. Overall I am happy with the way car turned out. The suspension is well done and the brakes are good with a NQSBBK setup. Need new coilovers and want to do camber plates.

I have not done any launches to see if how that is. I thought it was slipping because if you watch videos of clutch slips, you see the RPM gauge slow down for a moment in time and that is what I was seeing when I did my only launch at this elevation.

I will look into a LSD. I see you have a Mfactory. Like them?

My shop advised to look at Peloquin. I would love to get a rear LSD if we didn't have that dumb ring gear in the diff.

I am also looking into external oil and DSG coolers and the Tyrol radiator (1150?!). Local shop is writing up quotes for me.



I want to make this a weekend track car. Tracks that have long straights. I did auto X for a few years and that was fun.

Click to expand...

Look forward to following your progress and yes I like my MFactory setup, works great. Peloquin or Wavetrac are the players in the market for our cars.

My shop discouraged me from buying the radiator you mention. I did install a DSG cooler

Not sure why you would see an RPM slowdown with slipping DSG, if anything I would expect higher rpms and lowered torque.

I had some progress of my own today. Shop called and they got final tune done on my car. I asked for a tune that I could beat on all day long at the track (road course, like you said with lots of long straights).

Final Tune

480whp

• no dyno sheet yet (I am guessing this is a generous dyno not a Mustang)
• peak power achieved at 27psi
• full boost at 3500 rpm (tuner said it boosted almost as quick as K04 setup)
• 91oct in tank + 100% Methanol through Aquamist - 1 jet per intake runner plus 1 for cooling (5 jets)
• RS4 injectors, 155fprv, GolfR intake cam, APR HPFP, TTRS LPFP and Torqbyte PM3

I should have car back in a couple of weeks. As the tuner indicated, it will be a tire shredder.

Noticed some “fuel cut” issues, funky idle, and random hesitation.

I found and fixed the issue. It happened to be the pressure sensor on the HPFP.

QUICK BACKGROUND:

I installed a aftermarket intake manifold and forgot to switch the pressure sensor and the drain valve located on the HPFP for clearance. I damaged the plastic connector on the pressure sensor (no biggie it still worked) so I took the sensor off of my OEM pump that I had laying around and installed that.

Thats when the issues started happening. I thought it was from the intake manifold install but no. I swapped the sensor just to see if it would make a difference and all the issues were eliminated. Swapped it back and they came back.

I have been speaking with HPA as we were trying to troubleshoot the issue but low and behold it wasn’t the manifold.

Now, my questions.....

I have the APR HPFP and it came with the sensor to the left in the photo. My OEM is the sensor on the right. Theres obviously a difference with the orifice so I’d like to know:

1: which is the latest and greatest sensor from VW after the TSB?

2: the one on the right thats larger obviously didnt work so where can I purchase the one on the left? ( the connector broke and cannot read MFG P/N)

3: which sensors are you guys running?

Lastly, if its worth anything my pump has the numbers 7 2 on the housing.

Kind thanks everyone.



PS: Should I open this in a new thread? I know everyone is active in here with their builds and would probably be more familiar with what I’m talking about. I will open a new thread now just in case..

if you buy from a dealer you will get the newest as well as they can tell you the connector and get you one as well.