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Old 12-11-2012, 08:44 PM   #141
Short Bus
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Originally Posted by ibid View Post
Unless I see actual side-by-side tests by a driver skilled enough to be proficient in threshold braking, I will always see ABS as longer stopping distances and do not feel the ABS of 'today' has advanced far enough to make up for driver skill (for those who have it that is).

The biggest and most noticable problem with ABS comes into play with track conditions when you are using r-compound tires and better brakes and the factory 'stock' abs cannot compensate so threashold braking is what you want and use (none of my track cars have ABS).

^ I learned how to drive before ABS came into being and I just chuckle at the people who call it quits for a track day at a roadcourse when their ABS craps out because they can't drive without their crutch!

When I took my former 2010 TDI to a roadcourse for a track day, I pulled the ABS sensor to avoid the ABS and ECS headache!
I learned how to use a non-ABS system in a performance setting before ABS was a big thing and I honestly prefer ABS. Not so much for straight line stuff, I'd rather not have it for that, but for actual threshold braking. Without ABS it's too easy to lock up the rear tires going into a turn, but with multi-channel ABS that can separate the front from the rear you get much better control going into a corner.

Ideally my track car would be something like a Spec Racer Ford or something purely dedicated to track days where I wouldn't have ABS. But if I'm driving the same car on the track as I depend upon to get me to work.... I'm good with ABS.

Originally Posted by troyguitar View Post
Yep, it will withhold throttle until the vehicle has been stabilized. It really doesn't come into play until you're past about 90% of the car's capability though, very few people will ever be slowed down by it (hopefully none if we're talking about driving on the street). It is mainly a matter of principle that people are complaining about it - and rightfully so. If I can turn everything off on a Corvette, I should absolutely be able to turn it off on a Golf!
Actually...... now I remember that sensation of stepping on the throttle and going "WTF???" The key is to not let it get to that point in the first place; once you feel the sensation of the rear wanting to start rotating is when you should crack open the throttle; so you should never approach the need to counter-steer.

I understand that in most cars it's desirable to get the tail wagging just a bit while you're on the throttle, but this car doesn't like that (probably mostly due to the electronic constraints). What's interesting is if you catch it just right the car almost sort of feels like it has AWD, because you can get away with a higher than usual amount of throttle input for a FWD car at much earlier than one would expect.

It's oddly satisfying when you get it right, and it kind of trains you to approach hustling this car in a very smooth manner. Unfortunately I'm so far away from an active autocross region that I can't say if it's faster or not, but on a twisty backroad it feels "right."

Again, I'm firmly a part of the "RABBLE RABBLE, SCREW YOU VW LET ME TURN OFF ESP" crowd, but since I'm stuck with this for a while I felt like it was worth at least trying to figure out how to live with. On the street I don't really curse the presence of ESP, although if I could take my car to more track events or autocrosses I most certainly would.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:48 PM   #142
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^ this is not with the back end coming out at all, more the front end pushing out from the apex onward through the exit of the corner. The car doesn't realize that I'm expecting it to push some and won't give me power until I let it straighten out. It's minor but annoying and worth around a tenth per corner I'd guess.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:12 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by troyguitar View Post
^ this is not with the back end coming out at all, more the front end pushing out from the apex onward through the exit of the corner. The car doesn't realize that I'm expecting it to push some and won't give me power until I let it straighten out. It's minor but annoying and worth around a tenth per corner I'd guess.
Left foot braking can help this. In my R I never have on power ESC intervention at the track but that might be because I'm used to driving my old mkiv jetta fwd at the limit for 9 years on track. For me the ESC came into play on decelerating into high speed long sweepers. It slowed me down over 1 second per lap from one big long corner. I ise tires and grip to scrub speed there. If I took it easy I was that one second faster but now that I can disable ESC I think I'll be another second faster because I will be able to maintain a higher average speed through that corner due to higher entry, mid corner, and thus exit speeds which lead to the back straight and ultimately more time. I will say that the ESC limit is impressively high and I would agree with those who have stated that unless your on track and at at least 90% of the cars limit you will never see ESC activate (other then snow fun or wet parking lot shenanigans). But on top of that I will say that every car I have ever owned I have snow drifted every winter in parking lots and that actually that activity taught me great car control at the age of 15 and on and has proven to make me a better driver. I am an advanced class driver in every event I do these days. So here is to you oh breakers of ESC code! I salute you for enabling me to enjoy the top 10% of my own ability in this fine machine as well as allowing me to enjoy 200 foot drifts in the snow in my damn near $40k car. You have successfully taken my joy to the next level!!! Winter here I come!!!!

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Old 12-12-2012, 09:58 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by freedomgli View Post
You can't expect to be able to operate your vehicle with complex embedded electronic control systems like ABS and ESC beyond the performance envelope they were designed for and with different hardware without recalibration. That's just common sense. If you want side by side proof, just look at professional motorsports. Where ABS is allowed it is in use because it is a performance advantage. Bosch even makes ABS kits for motorsports use. Don't blame your car because you've made unbalanced modifications and don't understand the complex interactions of hardware and electronic control systems.
I don't have a burning desire to spend the money on 'motorsport' application ABS brakes. I am not an F1 driver and never will be. I am merely a 'hobby' track enthusiast who enjoys w2w in a simple spec miata (mid-pack mostly because I don't spend the big money on the engine and other mods and frankly don't have the skills to be a consistent 1st place driver compared to the fierce and fearless competition).

So I will simply prefer to 'turn off the aids' in a track setting or when wanting to have fun in the snow so I am very thankful I can turn it off now without pulling an ABS sensor when the desire is there!
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