6
Just test drove a BRZ
- Thread starter Red2011GTI
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Wood
Ready to race!
Thanks.
I think what Troy is trying to explain is that both cars, when prepared for the track similarily, will perform near each other. Not equal but near.
By similarily prepared I think he means, and correct me if I'm wrong...
GTI
Stage 1 Tune (because it's cheap and easy power, relatively speaking)
Track pads and fluid
Sticky tires
BRZ
track pads and fluid
sticky tires
maybe some bolt ons to up power
I don't think anyone is arguing that stock vs. stock the gti is faster, at least i'm not. Some are saying, me included, that a modified gti with more power will overcome its much larger weight and handling shortcomings, where the brz is better, in a track situation.
troyguitar
Go Kart Champion
Seems like some people are reading whatever they want to read instead of the actual posts.
I'll sum it up for your poor brain:
Any serious track driver will mod his track car, therefore if we are to make statements about a given car's track performance it makes sense to make them with regard to a vehicle set up in a way it will actually be run on the track.
Tires make a huge difference, therefore we should use similar if not the same tires to make any comparison.
So, to establish a baseline TRACK performance comparison between 2 vehicles we need to make some basic assumptions: Give both vehicles a bare minimum amount of modification that any serious track driver will use - ECU optimization, electronic performance aids on, electronic nannies off, wheel alignment, and at least summer tires.
The argument is that the GTI will compete with the BRZ under these circumstances, nothing more.
Not stock vs stock.
Not modded GTI vs stock BRZ.
Not in autocross.
Not with unlimited modding budgets.
You've put out vague one-liners hinting at some sort of empirical evidence, but you have posted nothing concrete and nothing remotely scientific... At best you have provided useless abstracts of anecdotes. You ran both vehicles and saw other people do the same. OK, great - Where, when, what class, what level of preparation, and WHAT WERE THE LAP TIMES?
What you're missing on power/torque difference:
I do not have all of that information obviously. My point was I am basing everything I've said in this thread off of actual experience. Not complete bs. Take that for what it's worth.
I'm well aware of area under the curve. I do drive a Si after all. Even with the power difference of tuned GTI, I still see no reason to believe it will beat a BRZ around any track.
An MS3 is similarly powered to that of a stage 1 GTI and is still slower than a BRZ around every test track I've seen.
My only argument has been, the GTI is an inferior performing car in every way aside from straight line acceleration.
Thanks.
I think what Troy is trying to explain is that both cars, when prepared for the track similarily, will perform near each other. Not equal but near.
By similarily prepared I think he means, and correct me if I'm wrong...
GTI
Stage 1 Tune (because it's cheap and easy power, relatively speaking)
Track pads and fluid
Sticky tires
BRZ
track pads and fluid
sticky tires
maybe some bolt ons to up power
I don't think anyone is arguing that stock vs. stock the gti is faster, at least i'm not. Some are saying, me included, that a modified gti with more power will overcome its much larger weight and handling shortcomings, where the brz is better, in a track situation.
Modifying BOTH for the track is only putting the GTI at a greater disadvantage.
SwiftGTI
Go Kart Champion
Oh really?
This is really not true. Autocross or tight road courses, yes. Not bigger tracks. Bring that BRZ out to a track day and I'll show you
That sure sounds like your modified GTI versus a stock BRZ to me, genius.
Noize
Go Kart Champion
You're being condescending to people: "poor brain", etc, while putting entirely too much emphasis on wheel horsepower and torque, especially on a racetrack where the GTI can't use those things. Nice using real whp for the BRZ while using APR's inflated crank estimates with a correction, by the way.
Yet you're leaving out important things like how Randy Pobst needed summer tires on an R to beat a BRZ by two tenths on Laguna Seca.
Bringing alignment into the equation was a bad move on your part. Our stupid GTI's can't even get good front negative camber, something that is critical for a FWD car that has so much front weight bias.
Put RS3s or Star Specs on both cars, best alignment possible, and the BRZ will poop all over a GTI. Why? Because it's 350 pounds lighter, drives the correct wheels, doesn't push like snow plow, and has a real limited slip differential.
Coming out of an Evo, I'll tell you that the GTI is an utter failure as a performance car: It doesn't handle well, it's brakes are pathetic, it has no traction at corner exit, it doesn't accelerate well... It is a front wheel drive appliance with a bit of pep. You can modify any car to be faster, but the FR-S/BRZ is such a better platform for racing, it's not even a rational comparison.
Quit while you're behind.
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SwiftGTI
Go Kart Champion
Yep, I agree, but this is difficult to prove on the internet (hence trying to avoid debating about hypothetical modified cars). It's too hard getting a valid comparison between two modified cars.
FWIW, seems like most bolt-on GTIs (tune, suspension, tires) are running 2:10-2:15 on Buttonwillow CW13.
Bolt-on BRZs (suspension, tires) are running in the 2:01-2:03 range, and it's still pretty early in the development process on those cars.
But again, very difficult getting an accurate comparison this way.
CaptObvious75
Ready to race!
The BRZ was purpose built for the track. I don't see how you could compare this to the Gti. They are different in so many levels..
I knew there had to be someone else on this forum with any clue of what they're talking about.
Well said sir :thumbsup:
Thanks captain obvious :laugh:
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