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Old 02-15-2018, 11:23 AM   #1513
Tony48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvturbo View Post
How the hell does a OBD2 port module measure timing chain stretch when the chain is a mechanical part? Please enlighten us all.
I think this has been pretty well covered previously in this thread but I will appease you:

You can measure the camshaft phase position at idle (block 093) using vagcom or OBD2. This number shows how far the camshaft angle is from what the car expects. If this number is out of a certain tolerance (-4 to 4) it is an indication that the camshaft timing chain has stretched or jumped a tooth.
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Old 02-16-2018, 12:42 PM   #1514
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Figured I'd post this here...my GTI (Build date 12/11) had the updated chain tensioner from the factory, just under 135k miles, and on 02/14 my car shutoff under light throttle and threw a P0341 - Cam position sensor. I had the car towed to the dealership as a precaution but I was almost 100% certain I needed a new cam position sensor and it wasn't a timing issue.

It was a timing issue. The service tech tested the camshaft sensor/signal and it was operating as it should. After a 3 hour partial teardown, compression test, and diagnosis...the tensioner did not fail but the chain was stretched to the point it started causing a timing issue. Long story short...everything related to the timing needs to be replaced (chains, guides, tensioner,), along with the intake camshaft which alone is almost a $760 part at the dealer - 06H109021K. The service tech recommended replacing the intake camshaft while everything is apart because it's a variable timing camshaft and could've experienced wear on the lobes as the timing came out of spec over time and at 135k miles, it was better to be safe than sorry. Otherwise, there was a possibility the timing would still be off if the camshaft wasn't replaced.

I was at a loss and devastated but the VW service guy working on my car put me at ease because he definitely knew what he was talking about and answered all my questions. I knew that stretched timing chains were an issue on the TSI but I thought it came down to maintenance (I do my oil changes every 4k-5k since new). The stretched timing chain is such an issue that they keep all of the parts IN STOCK at the dealership. They also told me I was lucky to have the updated tensioner because that kept the timing from experiencing a complete failure with bent valves, requiring a complete top end rebuild.

Situation sucks but at least I have a loaner from the dealership for the next few days and don't have to pay for a rental (my work commute is 140 miles roundtrip each day). I'll post the end result of the service either Monday or Tuesday evening.
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Old 02-16-2018, 01:01 PM   #1515
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Shit that sucks, NYCSuits. Now I'm worried about my car.
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Old 02-16-2018, 01:04 PM   #1516
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I personally wouldn't trust these cars past 120k with the original chain and tensioner, even with the updated parts.
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Old 02-16-2018, 01:08 PM   #1517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHerna View Post
Shit that sucks, NYCSuits. Now I'm worried about my car.
It happens...the only symptoms I experienced before this happened was a timing chain rattle when the engine was cold and the temperature was below freezing. The timing chain rattle would gradually decrease as the engine oil warmed up and you would only hear the direct injection ticking. This noticeable rattle started about 2 weeks ago but I didn't think much off it because I knew I had the new tensioner and wasn't even thinking about the chain itself being stretched.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sterkrazzy View Post
I personally wouldn't trust these cars past 120k with the original chain and tensioner, even with the updated parts.
For the first time, I agree with this statement. My confidence in the car has been destroyed because a car randomly shutting off while you're driving, is scary stuff. Luckily the steering is electric assisted, so steering wasn't affected but the brakes were extremely stiff and wouldn't release until I re-started the car.
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Old 02-16-2018, 01:21 PM   #1518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCSuits View Post
For the first time, I agree with this statement. My confidence in the car has been destroyed because a car randomly shutting off while you're driving, is scary stuff. Luckily the steering is electric assisted, so steering wasn't affected but the brakes were extremely stiff and wouldn't release until I re-started the car.
I had a bad experience with a chain on my last car, a 2001 gti vr6. I was going about 5 mph and just barely tapped the gas, and then I lost all power like a coilpack went out. I even drove it home like that. Turns out I stretched the chain and broke a couple teeth on the sprocket, somehow that's all the damage I did. Everybody always said the chain was a job to be done at 120k, and this happened to me at 111k. I'm glad they use a chain and not a belt, but I still wouldn't trust the chains beyond 120k.
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Old 02-16-2018, 07:34 PM   #1519
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I changed out my chains and guides on my 2011 about a year ago at somewhere around 120-125kmi. I changed out the tensioner to the updated version around 108kmi but decided to go back in and update it all (and used another new tensioner). My cam chain was loose enough that it wasn't touching the intake cam sprocket for nearly half of the teeth it would normally grab. When installing the new chain I had to remove the cam sprocket holder from the exhaust cam and manually rotate the exhaust cam with a wrench clockwise toward the intake cam in order to get the mark on the sprocket to match the dark link on the chain, so it was definitely stretched. I had info I found online that showed the proper distance from a specific point to the mark on the intake cam chain to verify proper timing to know that it was the exhaust cam that needed to get moved and not the intake side. The car got flashed to Stage 1 around 27kmi, Stage 2 around 40kmi, and k04 at 108kmi. I figured that the added stress from being tuned may have accelerated the stretch over the expected 150kmi change interval.

After the new chains were installed I noticed a bit better response at low rpm and a smoother idle.
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Old 02-16-2018, 10:04 PM   #1520
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I am currently at 132k miles. Have not doing the tensioner yet but I will soon. What's all the parts I need for this?
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:08 AM   #1521
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I seem to remember from earlier in the thread that Deutche Auto Parts put together a whole kit.... it would be worth checking there, also I believe ECS has all the parts but someone can confirm where they got hooked up at.


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Old 02-17-2018, 03:12 PM   #1522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony48 View Post
I think this has been pretty well covered previously in this thread but I will appease you:

You can measure the camshaft phase position at idle (block 093) using vagcom or OBD2. This number shows how far the camshaft angle is from what the car expects. If this number is out of a certain tolerance (-4 to 4) it is an indication that the camshaft timing chain has stretched or jumped a tooth.
Need to do mine. Mine constantly sits around -4.20 when warm. Very hot days I get a start up rattle after car has been driven then sitting for 20 minutes and started again and I have updated tensioner.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:19 AM   #1523
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I sold my 12 MK6 a few years ago. It seems like this problem has gotten much worse since I sold. I'm wanting another GTI and I'm actually shopping now...

Given said that - with everything we know about this issue and the mk6 now, does everyone still recommend the TSI over the FSI? I was originally shooting for an MK5.5 but now I'm wondering if I should just go to the FSI.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:56 AM   #1524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA-Ron View Post
I sold my 12 MK6 a few years ago. It seems like this problem has gotten much worse since I sold. I'm wanting another GTI and I'm actually shopping now...

Given said that - with everything we know about this issue and the mk6 now, does everyone still recommend the TSI over the FSI? I was originally shooting for an MK5.5 but now I'm wondering if I should just go to the FSI.
Id go for the golf R if were you
Fsi engine with timing belt...no more issues, just cam Follower replacement every 20k or so
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Old 02-22-2018, 04:15 PM   #1525
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Originally Posted by NYCSuits View Post
Figured I'd post this here...my GTI (Build date 12/11) had the updated chain tensioner from the factory, just under 135k miles, and on 02/14 my car shutoff under light throttle and threw a P0341 - Cam position sensor. I had the car towed to the dealership as a precaution but I was almost 100% certain I needed a new cam position sensor and it wasn't a timing issue.

It was a timing issue. The service tech tested the camshaft sensor/signal and it was operating as it should. After a 3 hour partial teardown, compression test, and diagnosis...the tensioner did not fail but the chain was stretched to the point it started causing a timing issue. Long story short...everything related to the timing needs to be replaced (chains, guides, tensioner,), along with the intake camshaft which alone is almost a $760 part at the dealer - 06H109021K. The service tech recommended replacing the intake camshaft while everything is apart because it's a variable timing camshaft and could've experienced wear on the lobes as the timing came out of spec over time and at 135k miles, it was better to be safe than sorry. Otherwise, there was a possibility the timing would still be off if the camshaft wasn't replaced.

I was at a loss and devastated but the VW service guy working on my car put me at ease because he definitely knew what he was talking about and answered all my questions. I knew that stretched timing chains were an issue on the TSI but I thought it came down to maintenance (I do my oil changes every 4k-5k since new). The stretched timing chain is such an issue that they keep all of the parts IN STOCK at the dealership. They also told me I was lucky to have the updated tensioner because that kept the timing from experiencing a complete failure with bent valves, requiring a complete top end rebuild.

Situation sucks but at least I have a loaner from the dealership for the next few days and don't have to pay for a rental (my work commute is 140 miles roundtrip each day). I'll post the end result of the service either Monday or Tuesday evening.
Update

Just received my car from the dealer and total cost after tax was over $3k. Dealer prices for parts were crazy but I had no choice to go the dealer route because my car broke down 80 miles from where I live. I probably could've saved $300-$400 in parts BUT the dealership did provide me a nearly new Jetta loaner for 7 days, which basically offset the cost because I would've needed to rent a car during the down time since I drive 160 miles to and from work each day.

As for the car, the engine is noticeably more responsive. Especially when you tip into the throttle in 5th and 6h gear. It's hard to explain but the engine feels tighter and sounds different as well. My tuned ECU wasn't touch which was a fear I had but it's definitely there.

From the service receipt:

"Towed in, customer stated vehicle has a cam position sensor code and vehicle will run but stalls out...Confirmed code, car running rough, scanned for faults, had timing faults when checked timing with scan tool, was at edge of spec 5 was at 4.38, checked cam actuator for damage none found, timing chain stretched, replaced intake cam and timing chains, tensioner and replaced guided"
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Old 02-27-2018, 08:34 PM   #1526
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How long are the timing chains supposed to last on the mk6 engines? i have a '11 gti and just had my timing chain tensioner/chain/guides/cover replaced but im thinking that the timing chains should be a lifetime part.
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