GTI Driving Impressions with ESC Fully off

PetrolHead, Did you know that the 2009 to 2011 can disable the ESP via vag-com ? U knew u could disable it before u sold it I hope !

Of course, we can't switch back as easy with a drag of a button like the 2012+ but if u are sure that u won't ESP like me, well, a Vagcom can do it by disable the steering sensor.

I disabled mine, on a 2010, for more that 1 year now. I tried this setup on tracks and I lost the car for 2-3 times but always could recover it with just a lot fear more that anything. And kinda really learned how to drive.

I still keep it off for winter now. I really think im controlling the car more that way. You have to understand why a car would slide and understeer, and why it could oversteer, its a matter of speed relative to your traction and steering wheel angles, most of the time.

So, I say, whatever the year ! ESP can be remove, try it, like it ? keep it.

do you get the indicator light on the cluster under both settings? how do you know which mode you're in?

J3553 said:

do you get the indicator light on the cluster under both settings? how do you know which mode you're in?

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You have to know what you are doing. It flashes up on the MFD and dings at you.

I'm not sure if I'd be faster with ECS fully off, but ECS sure takes the fun out of driving. I hit a wet corner with my 02 TDI bug kinda hot, when I lifted the car rotated, and I jumped back on the throttle enough to keep the back end out around the corner. It was just a kick, so much fun! If I could have done that in our GTI, I would have kept it.

XGC75 said:

Hey check my build thread. 2nd page. Found it fun and damned rewarding to know how the chassis really wants to behave but it added almost 2 seconds to my laps. Made me appreciate ESC that much more.

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I thought you did it with the steering sensor disable and, hence, XDS disable? Chances are killing XDS hurt your times more than the ESC.

I have not been to the track since the proper fix was made public so I can't say, but I can say that ESC is only going to slow you down when you're within a couple seconds of the fastest lap the car is capable of turning. For most people, even on the track, it is not a hindrance.

troyguitar said:

I thought you did it with the steering sensor disable and, hence, XDS disable? Chances are killing XDS hurt your times more than the ESC.

I have not been to the track since the proper fix was made public so I can't say, but I can say that ESC is only going to slow you down when you're within a couple seconds of the fastest lap the car is capable of turning. For most people, even on the track, it is not a hindrance.

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Yes you're right, I disabled esc via steering position sensor for my first outing without ESC. Nowadays I just press and hold the button. Now that you mention it, I can't wait to get back to the track and start going back and forth, lap by lap

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I haven't had a real chance to drive spiritedly with the trac/esc off, but for the experienced snow driver, it's absolutely necessary IMO.

A few weeks ago, I had a 50 mile drive home in the snow, and turned all driving aids off right away once I realized the car was a pain in the ass to drive with everything on. I really can't stand it when cars make decisions for me in inclement weather.

Even with the stock Pirellis, the car drove like a dream as long as I was smooth with throttle application and braking.

I should be making it out to an AutoX or two later this year, so I'll be able to test out the differences at some point.

Wow, thanks for all the responses guys! I wasn't aware that esc could be defeated on 09-11's through vagcom. When I had my 09 (sold it about a year ago), the best you could do was disconnect an ABS sensor and kill ABS. I'm fine with threshold braking on the track, but driving around without ABS scared me on the street, especially if my wife took the car. Glad to see progress has been made, but still a light on the dash is a tip-off to something being wrong to a dealer, and the wife case is still a concern in that I'd like to be able to have esc on in case she drives the car. Getting the vagcom out for every trip to the dealer and wife drive could be a pain. Not to mention, there's already CPO deals on 2012s that make them pretty close in price to 2011s and 2010s, and the extended warranty would be nice. The most I'd probably do to the car is a rear sway bar and vagcom enable the 2-step esc button.

I do fully understand that esc off is slower on the track. I'm fine with that. What I hated was how unnatural the car felt at the limit with esc on. I feel like to progress as a high performance driver, car control is paramount, and if esc is doing it for you, that defeats the purpose. Still, I'm wondering how a GTI handles at the limit with the esc off. I'm not a huge fan of fwd cars, but I miss the refinement, practicality, and value of the GTI. If you can induce lift-off oversteer and other shenanigans, I think the car would be far more fun on the track and autox.

Thanks again for the responses guys, keep them coming!

PetrolHead said:

Glad to see progress has been made, but still a light on the dash is a tip-off to something being wrong to a dealer, and the wife case is still a concern in that I'd like to be able to have esc on in case she drives the car. Getting the vagcom out for every trip to the dealer and wife drive could be a pain.

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Not sure what you mean - you don't need to take out vag-com to enable/disable esc every time. All it takes is for vag-com to reprogram the button function once so that the button is able to engage or defeat ESC on its own. So once you tweak that button, you're able to press the button to disable traction control (as normal), but pressing and holding the button will now turn off ESC. No vag-com intervention necessary after that initial tweak.

I have this functionality currently and it works as if the car was supposed to come that way from the factory. No dash indications and no way for the dealer to detect this unless they read out the software off your CECM and compared it against an exactly optioned GTI.

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^ Doesn't work on the 2009 GTI he sold.

Funny you mentioned dash lights though. The first tweak I tried was clumsy and did leave that light on (before I knew the button could be reprogrammed). After my 20k service, the tech came by and said that everything looked great, but the traction control didn't work and he couldn't figure out why... I told him I was fooling around with vag-com and he rolled his eyes, "ooohh okay. So it's all good then?"

"Yeah, it's great"

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PRND[S] said:

^ Doesn't work on the 2009 GTI he sold.

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I got the impression he was in the market.

PetrolHead said:

Still, I'm wondering if ESC off on a 12 or 13 would make me love the GTI again?

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XGC75 said:

I got the impression he was in the market.

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I'm considering a MY12 CPO because I can vagcom the 2-stage ESC button. As far as I know, the only way to disable ESC on an 09-11 is to vag-com it off, which leaves the traction control or ESC light (not sure which) on the dash. I don't want ESC off permanently, I want to be able to select when it's on or off.

Really, I'm just wondering how a GTI handles at the limit uninhibited by ESC.

PetrolHead said:

I do fully understand that esc off is slower on the track. I'm fine with that. What I hated was how unnatural the car felt at the limit with esc on.

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ESC off = slower? That's wrong (at least for me) on many levels.

I'll try to explain my experience with it as best as I can.

The biggest example of this was a negative G off camber right hander at Buttonwillow raceway. I had my first offtrack adventure going through there because well, I fucked up. I took the wrong line and overcooked it going into the turn and I understeered right off track, thankfully, it was pretty uneventful. I actually have a clip of it somewhere that I got with my GoPro.

I made the same mistake on a previous HPDE event but this was while I had ESC "partially" off. The cars nannies worked its magic and allowed me to stay on the track and get out of the situation I put myself in.

Another example with ESC off at the same track was a kink left hander that you do around 90 MPH. It comes right after a long sweeping right hander at around 85mph. This combination makes you weight shift the car in a short amount of time and if you're not smooth with the inputs the car will tell you it doesn't like it. In my case I was behind in my inputs and threw the car left to hit the apex which caused me to oversteer and kick the back end of the car out right. It was a fun moment instead of scary because I knew a little bit of countersteer would bring the car right back in line.

Again, same mistake made at the previous HPDE event at the same corner, with ESP partially off. As the car oversteered the nannies kicked in and you could feel the car shudder and vibrate because of the brakes being applied to bring the car back in line.

Being able to have ESC completely off has been great because now I feel that I'm able to manipulate the car to do what I want without interference, which will in turn make me a better driver.

Will it magnify mistakes? Hell yes it will and I dont recommend turning it off unless you're ready and know how to correct the car.

I can trailbrake better and rotate the rear end around to help point the car in the direction I want.


The only way I see ESC off making you slower is 1) if your not ready/skilled enough with it off and 2) if you're an absolute tard on the track not following the right line or unsettling the car with bad inputs or overcooking it into turns.

I will say that I don't consider myself to be an excellent track driver, I know I have a lot of room to improve and bring my skills up to what the car is truly capable of, but I do feel comfortable enough to push my limits bit by bit and understand what the boundaries are.

Someone speaking my language! This is awesome feedback. I say that ESC off is potentially slower because honestly, it shouldn't matter. The fastest line is the one where ESC isn't kicking in. It can help correct tiny mistakes and in doing so IN THEORY should make you faster. The flip side, and what frustrated me was how intrusive it was in correcting errors and it really inhibited developing as a driver. I had a track-prepped 944 Turbo that didn't even have ABS at the same time as I had the GTI. It was great for learning car control and track driving, but I got married, my wife hated it and I sold it and just the GTI. After that car, I felt like the GTI was holding me back.

GP813 said:

you could feel the car shudder and vibrate because of the brakes being applied to bring the car back in line.

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THIS was the most frustrating with my GTI, especially in autocross. I learned left foot trail braking in the 944 to keep the revs up and help rotate the car. The ESC freaked out when I did that. I thought I broke the car as it cut the throttle and continued applying the brakes until I was almost stopped. I had a big RSB on my car so it was eager to rotate, but even if I could induce mild oversteer either by lifting off or trail braking, jabbing the throttle to bring the car back in-line was met with the engine being cut and more brakes being applied where I didn't want it. In essence, I felt like the entire time I was having fun was fighting the computer.

GP813 said:

I can trailbrake better and rotate the rear end around to help point the car in the direction I want.

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This is what I wanted to hear. I'm not sure what other cars you've driven, but how do you feel the GTI handles at the limit with ESC off? Does it tend to plow too much? Being FWD, I know the tendency is understeer, but I'm looking for something that's over-all balanced. I don't want a drift monster, and I don't feel like plowing through the infield. I want balance...and the GTI seems to be closest to providing it, assuming ESC is off. I know I can't replicate the 944, but can I have something close with the refinement of a new car and the practicality of a hatch?