The dangers of increasing GTI turbo-boost

harddrivin1le said:

But your sales pitches are. Right?

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Nope.

In the case of the FSI we got our hands on pre production engines from VW and Audi in 2003 years before people saw any of our software. We then continued accelerated life testing with our motorsport program which spilled over into the TSI engine. We've had countless interactions with the OEM and knowledge has come our way from many sources. Have you ever met the person who designed the TSI? We do our homework.

Car and Driver and Wikipedia are good enough for me.

I'm not going to waste my time searching out VW/Audi supplied engine details because people will just discount those, too.

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Thanks! That's the "full of shit" proof I was looking for.

Wow, the level of antagonism on this thread is going to give me a heart attack. I need a glass of scotch and a cigar...you know, for my heart.

whatzupwithtah said:

You are aware that APR is involved in motorsports, right?

If your choice of sources are good enough for you, your argument is not valid since it does not bring first party facts to the discussion.

I would love to see you in an argument in court and watch you get turned away so fast.

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I am aware that they're in the business of selling parts and, as such, that does not make them a truly objective party.

This is not an indictment against APR nor was it ever intended to be. I wish them the best in their endeavors.

I'm sure they make fine products and I've given some consideration to their Stage 1 flash myself.

My only point here is that VW/Audi engineers don't specify the EA888 engine (current gen GTI engine) for their higher performance applications.

As such, I feel that adding significant amounts of HP/TQ. to that engine by increasing boost will result in equally significant reductions in engine longevity and reliability.

harddrivin1le said:

But your sales pitches are. Right?

Car and Driver and Wikipedia are good enough for me.

I'm not going to waste my time searching out VW/Audi supplied engine details because people will just discount those, too.

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This has got to be one of the worst threads I've seen on a car enthusiast forum since I first joined them almost 10 years ago.

1. OP - everyone knows upping the boost on a car is "technically" not the best thing and "may" decrease the life of the motor. Obviously, that's a common assumption of risk. Most people who do a stage 1 on any forced induction motor know this and you rarely ever hear of Stage 1 cars blowing, with the exception of perhaps some of the 08+ STI's (some had issues even stock). However, there are Porsche's from 1987 that are chipped on stock motors and are still fine to this day.

2. That said, Arin is 100% correct as far as why haven't we heard about it then? where are the threads titled, "APR Stage 1 blew up my ish, yo!"? I've yet to see one. Can it happen? sure.. but doesn't seem to be common by any means.

3. Most cars are toned down from the factory simply to meet emission standards. By increasing boost, freeing up the exhaust flow, etc, you are increasing performance and sometimes mpg, but yes, it may technically be a little "dirtier". The factory just wants to put out something that is the most economical and reliable at the get-go. Don't think that brands like VW, Subaru, Mitsu, don't know that you are going to mod the car most likely anyway.

4. VW offers APR upgrades at many of its dealerships. While the legal mumbo jumbo is still there to free them from liability if the mod "directly causes" a defect/problem, it still shows a good amount of confidence for them to do the flash right there in the dealership. I know of no other major brand who does anything like this with ECU flashing.

5. As another member said, maintenance and driving habits alone have to do with it. Changing your oil, not bouncing off the red limiter 24/7 (note: I am not saying anything about NOT going to a track :thumbsup, helps to prolong the life of your motor.

In closing, this is a complete waste of time. Go on iwsti and talk about shitty pistons if you want to talk about real factory issues (even that is minor, perhaps 2-3% of the production run), otherwise drop this one, cause you are not convincing anyone.

Diego said:

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I'm glad you're around for awesome sauce pictures.

I read the whole thing........and I have come to the conclusion that not everyone should be able to use the internet. Thanks Arin for the clarity and only real supported arguments.

Harddriven just got served by Arin

grambles423 said:

Harddriven just got served by Arin

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http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q1/2010_volkswagen_golf_r-first_drive_review

"You might expect that the [2010 Golf] R and GTI would share an engine, only differing in tune, but you’d be mistaken. The GTI’s Audi-developed EA888 2.0-liter turbo four is not yet sturdy enough to handle the power and torque required for the Golf R, so the burlier model keeps the older, VW-developed EA113 engine..."

i dont know if this has been mentioned... but the EA888 motor is in the EU only. Idiots...
You keep your car stock. I'll keep modding mine.

harddrivin1le said:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q1/2010_volkswagen_golf_r-first_drive_review

"You might expect that the [2010 Golf] R and GTI would share an engine, only differing in tune, but you’d be mistaken. The GTI’s Audi-developed EA888 2.0-liter turbo four is not yet sturdy enough to handle the power and torque required for the Golf R, so the burlier model keeps the older, VW-developed EA113 engine..."

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For the love of god, stop quoting that. Golf R is AWD and probably has a different transmission (Arin or additional car and driver quote should confirm this). It needs more power and tq for the awd, as there is more drivetrain loss in power because of it.

harddrivin1le said:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q1/2010_volkswagen_golf_r-first_drive_review

"You might expect that the [2010 Golf] R and GTI would share an engine, only differing in tune, but you’d be mistaken. The GTI’s Audi-developed EA888 2.0-liter turbo four is not yet sturdy enough to handle the power and torque required for the Golf R, so the burlier model keeps the older, VW-developed EA113 engine..."

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But the Golf R is 4-wheel drive. That has to factor into this somehow. Plus the turbo isn't the same as the GTI?

i am really questioning the notion that hardriven is actually an engineer that he says he is.


mods can we please ban this guy or at the very least put him in time out


also i fail to see how you come to the conclusion that arin is biased. he isnt promoting his products on this board.....more like defending them and his knowledge. plus i very seriously doubt that apr wouldnt put the r&d into their products and provide something that is unsafe. it doesnt do them any good to produce ecu tuning that blows up motors. i dont think they would be in business very long if that was the case. it seems as though you are the one that lacks common knowledge and logic.

let me ask you this, when a car mag says that a certain transmission is bulletproof (or bombproof), do you think that they literally mean you can go out and shoot it or blow it up and it will survive? the way you keep quoting magazines and wiki as if it were 100% accurate and true, tells me you would/do believe in my question above.

surrealchemist said:

But the Golf R is 4-wheel drive. That has to factor into this somehow. Plus the turbo isn't the same as the GTI?

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Audi/VW doesn't specify the EA888 for any of its high performance applications.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_petrol_engines

The EA113 is reserved for such applications.

They'd be using the newer EA888 engine if it were up to the task - just like the C&D article stated.

A good look at the detailed engines specs and materials (which are undoubtedly written in German and may not even be available publicly) would cast a full light on their differences, which are undoubtedly even more significant than I've pointed out (e.g. larger engine lubrication system, larger engine cooling system).

The EA888 will eventually be factory fortified such that it can provide elevated power levels with the desired degree of reliability and longevity, but that hasn't yet happened.

oddspider said:

i am really questioning the notion that hardriven is actually an engineer that he says he is.


mods can we please ban this guy or at the very least put him in time out

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I've yet to meet an engineer that does nothing but quote wiki car and driver, especially one that claims to have 25 years experience