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Old 07-16-2015, 01:41 AM   #29
marxan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIACUser View Post
I don't think anyone so far can provide you with a black or white answer as this is obviously not a run of the mill mod and not an off the shelf feature of the standard list of aftermarket DSG tunes.

I believe there are a couple of approaches to the slippage problem.

1. Applying a tune with more clamping force.
2. Install upgraded clutch pack.

The tune approach is very attractive because it is relatively inexpensive and requires no labor. Just the cost of a tune maybe 700 ish total.

The upgraded clutch pack approach is perhaps a more solid approach but much more expensive and requires expertise/special tools/time OR about 1200 to pay a proper shop to do the install for you. Basic parts and stage 1 clutch pack would be about 1300 dollars. So this is at best a 2500 solution.

If Uni doesn't follow through and provide the custom tune pretty soon I may be forced to go the clutch pack route. The only reason I am keeping that on the table is because I have an LSD that needs to be installed anyway.


That's a misconception most people have and often require an expensive experience to realise it's not true.. I have met tons of people who bought the SSP clutch pack and only a minority are happy clients..


Read this thread, the guy explains it quite well:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ch-replacement
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Old 07-16-2015, 02:01 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marxan View Post
That's a misconception most people have and often require an expensive experience to realise it's not true.. I have met tons of people who bought the SSP clutch pack and only a minority are happy clients..


Read this thread, the guy explains it quite well:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ch-replacement
If you have met TONS of people who bought the SSP clutch pack with marginal success then I will take that under consideration. It would be good to know if they were user installed or professionally installed, just curious. Likely I will drive into AUTuning and tell them what I want as an outcome and just pay the price and let them make the call on what they know works.
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Old 07-16-2015, 03:32 AM   #31
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This is an awesome thread with some really relevant questions but I fear it might be going off topic somewhat.

Someone here said that a slipping DSG means you "have other problems". That's very untrue. My DSG and the rest of my car is healthy in every way except for slipping issues directly associated with my K04 setup and the torque it's pushing through the gearbox. Quite frankly, if you are running a K04 setup and your DSG doesn't start slipping, you're either very lucky OR your car is under performing.

I've only been doing some research on the Unitronic DSG tune and it does appear that their over-the-counter Stage 1 and 2 DSG tune does not increase the clamping pressure. However, they do cater for different setups and are MORE than capable of increasing the clamping pressure if/when needed. So just speak to them.

As far as increasing clamping pressure is concerned, I'm also wondering what effect that has on the heat of the DSG oil which would directly influence the life of the mechatronics unit. From what I understand though, running with slipping clutches does MORE damage to the box than increasing the clamping pressure.

When it comes to managing heat, you can always upgrade the stock DSG cooler to the revision C model and also get a USP billet aluminium Oil Filter Housing which should also help to dissipate heat.

I'll let you know what my impressions are next week after getting the Stage 2 DSG tune from Unitronic.
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Old 07-16-2015, 03:50 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIACUser View Post
If you have met TONS of people who bought the SSP clutch pack with marginal success then I will take that under consideration. It would be good to know if they were user installed or professionally installed, just curious. Likely I will drive into AUTuning and tell them what I want as an outcome and just pay the price and let them make the call on what they know works.
It includes 2 different tuning shop owners on their own car... Dodson which is making this clutch pack with excedy would be my choice if I was considering but read the thread of vwortex link I posted and you ll see why it might not even work if it's not paired with the right software.

If you are ready to pay the price as you said you could always send your gearbox to HGP.. They will do a conversion to 7 speed and add more clutches which are made out of the same material as OEM.. Euro 2,300+ shipping both way of your gearbox
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Old 07-16-2015, 08:31 AM   #33
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It's simple, go to vag-com. Log clamping pressure. Report back.

Let's see if it goes above the stock limits.
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Old 07-16-2015, 08:49 AM   #34
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@Arin - you seem almost convinced that clamping pressure isn't increased with various tunes sold? I read a recent post on Vortex by a very knowledgeable person on DSG software (explaining hardness in SSP clutches etc.) and he mentioned APR DSG software to be less than adequate. Are you guys having a hard time figuring out how to increase clamping pressure?

Why so sceptical on other tuners' claims of increased clamping pressure?

The post I read (which was awesome btw. go have a read) mentioned that claims of clamping pressure above 16-17 bar is basically impossible without hardware modification to the Mechatronics unit, but a lot of tuning houses do offer clamping pressures at 16 bar. So again, why so sceptical?
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Last edited by NeoSA; 07-16-2015 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 07-16-2015, 10:54 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSA View Post
This is an awesome thread with some really relevant questions but I fear it might be going off topic somewhat.

Someone here said that a slipping DSG means you "have other problems". That's very untrue. My DSG and the rest of my car is healthy in every way except for slipping issues directly associated with my K04 setup and the torque it's pushing through the gearbox. Quite frankly, if you are running a K04 setup and your DSG doesn't start slipping, you're either very lucky OR your car is under performing.

I've only been doing some research on the Unitronic DSG tune and it does appear that their over-the-counter Stage 1 and 2 DSG tune does not increase the clamping pressure. However, they do cater for different setups and are MORE than capable of increasing the clamping pressure if/when needed. So just speak to them.

As far as increasing clamping pressure is concerned, I'm also wondering what effect that has on the heat of the DSG oil which would directly influence the life of the mechatronics unit. From what I understand though, running with slipping clutches does MORE damage to the box than increasing the clamping pressure.

When it comes to managing heat, you can always upgrade the stock DSG cooler to the revision C model and also get a USP billet aluminium Oil Filter Housing which should also help to dissipate heat.

I'll let you know what my impressions are next week after getting the Stage 2 DSG tune from Unitronic.
I would agree with your assessment of the K04 setup. Mine started to slip at the point where I had graduated to a very aggressive custom tune for my Water Meth setup.

Unless you are tracking/racing I wouldn't be worried about heat.

Gettting back on track, OP assumed ......
"Some offer various stages of clamping force to hold the added torque output for bigger turbos."
Nobody is advertising increased clamping force for off the shelf products, they are advertising increased torque limits.

OP is asking some tough questions about CP (clamping pressure).
  • Is it a preventative measure?
  • What are the negative side effects?
  • How much pressure is enough?


Seems that we could use a tech from Uni, HPA etc. to chime in and set us straight. It appears that increasing CP is not a common mod.
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Old 07-16-2015, 11:46 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIACUser View Post
"Some offer various stages of clamping force to hold the added torque output for bigger turbos."
Nobody is advertising increased clamping force for off the shelf products, they are advertising increased torque limits.
HPA and UM for sure offer a pretty standard DSG tune with increased clamping force, not just torque limit changes. They also offer the ability to do some custom work. I have not looked closely at DM or the TVG offering to know if they are OTS or not.

With UM I simply schedule and appt with my local tuner, they have files loaded on the server for download or the tuner contacts them to have tweaks made for you. Go in, hook up and download.
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Old 07-16-2015, 11:48 AM   #37
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Definitely some tech assistance would be nice to explain in more detail.
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Old 07-16-2015, 12:08 PM   #38
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@Arin - you seem almost convinced that clamping pressure isn't increased with various tunes sold?
There's a lot of misconception, that's all. Logging clamping pressure it really easy to do, so proving it should be easy. I'm surprised after all these years no one has. Just try it out!
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Old 07-16-2015, 12:16 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
It's simple, go to vag-com. Log clamping pressure. Report back.

Let's see if it goes above the stock limits.
Arin, what are the stock clamping pressure numbers?

Can anyone that DOES NOT have a DSG tune log their clamping pressure? I'll log my clamping pressure once it stops raining in Florida (maybe in a couple months LOL).
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Old 07-16-2015, 12:51 PM   #40
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We do not increase the clamping pressure on our standard [production] performance software for the DSG. However, to achieve beyond 500 Nm, clutch pressure must be increased above the stock pressure limit.

Here is a quick picture of a log for reference of a DSG equipped vehicle making 650 Nm using our Performance Software for the DSG.

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Old 07-16-2015, 05:20 PM   #41
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Hi all.
I have switched to TSV Engineering / DSG-Dokter.nl tune from the Netherlands. They're amazing. I went from a known tuner. Already inside this thread. DO NOT WANT TO MAKE A FUZ HERE. ONLY PROVIDE INFO.
The old sw had NO clamping pressure increased. I had big slipping on stock sw but the old DSG sw (tuned) did fix the slippage but the car acted weird in D mode. The shifts was not smooth in slow city cruise.

Now with the new TVS tune my car is amazing. The shift is so smooth. The support from TVS is amazing. Custom tune is no problem.
I'll log my car in the weekend and report back.

Here is the info from the other forums. Hope it's ok I copied and pasted it inn here.
*********
Hi Guys, I’m pretty surprised the name of TVS-engineering / DSGdokter.nl is not mentioned. To give you an idea: They do 1.500 DSG’s per year and stock over 1.000 DSG gearboxes!!

They offer DQ250 software for stock clutch with 550Nm (16-17bar), DQ250 raceclutches and DQ500 convert kits, DQ500 raceclutch, DQ500 software and even for the DQ200 software which does over 400Nm’s(New A3 1.8 TSI 180hp).
I study myself on HAN Arnhem, designing a DSG testing machine for them. I now do a project for this company as some other students. (ps. hope to have the machine ready for Rematec show in Amsterdam june-2015.

In the office I hear them talking daily about this subject. Some first-hand info that I learned and experienced, and you maybe might want to know :

It’s all about software. You should not pick Software brand A and clutch Brand B. The friction coefficient of the friction material is crucial. SSP runs hard plates. When you install them you will see lots of slip. The plates are too hard. You must perform a very long drive in period so the Mechatronic can correct all adaption values. I’m 101% sure TVS sells DSG software specially for these SSP clutches to avoid a 1000 mile drive-in period. They do not sell SSP themselves cause the effective extra torque capability is minor.


Dodson: No idea I’m looking for results, that’s how I found this topic.
For SSP you find old topics with satisfied customers but some topics end up in drama. Hope this will not be the case with Dodson. But It surprises me that I do not see Dodson offering Software. If you know how DSG software works(and I know quite a lot about this) it’s theoretical impossible to make a perfect combination. The software is quite self-learning and that helps allot. But values like friction coefficient should be customized in the software to make a professional product. There are over 300 maps and variables. I helped with some mapping changing like 50 maps and variables like oil-cooling back shift latency etc.
Believe me, the top-brands you guys are talking about, alter just a few maps, mainly the torque limiter. Harsh but true. It’s all about the base-map they use I cannot tell too much cause I will get my ass kicked. But to give you an example: A Golf6R20 software file can handle more torque then a Golf5R32 file.

The link from the 750whp car is awesome, but I’m surprised nobody is saying the clutch barely holds. Listen to the exhaust sound. The shifts are super slow the clutch slips way too much. If you would shift not in rev-limiter but in max TQ rpm range (say 5000rpm) there will be a chance clutch will slip and burn away in seconds. This gearbox will not hold for long and will get overheated I think. Btw, a DQ250 gearset is way too weak for this power to be durable. 600Nm max.
Also there is no torque reduction on shift. I learned this just a week ago. When you perform a Launch control the engine power is not cut at a full throttle shift. It’s the “prr” noise which you normally hear. Listen carefully!
TVS has 100% unique software for this. I have been sitting in a TT-RS APR stage III+ with extra mods. The stock clutch could not hold power with a Launch control, just like in the movie above. They altered the LC modus and know again you hear the “prr” noise on shift, just like in normal D or S driving. And know the stock clutch could handle all power (700Nm I thought).

I have also seen a Golf6R APR stage III+ with stock clutches. I was in the car making datalogs. They sell the software to many APR dealers all over the world cause the APR DSG software is extremely poor(which is already mentioned here). APR dealers must know this??


Increase oil pressure:
This is the subject I’m fighting on daily  People think that oil pressure is increased, but that’s not how it works. The oil pressure is depending on the power that is put on the clutch.
The clutch ALWAYS slips, for about 1%. So if the input shaft does 3000rpm, the output shaft does 2770rpm. The slips is regulated at ultra high speeds. It gives comfort and reduces gearboxwear, and reduces fuel consumption cause the oil pomp does not have to work so hard to close the clutch, only when needed on full throttle. You can find this info in VW-DSG brochures.
So if you tune your engine, you oil pressure will auto-increase. So think: If you change the friction material, you will screw up the PID-regulator calculating the needed oil pressure.
The highest oil pressure you can get is 16-17bar. Simply because the Mechatronic clutch section cannot supply more pressure. Then you have to make mechanical modification first. On some forums you read people claiming to have like 20bar, but If you ask for VCDS datalogs of measuring block 011&012 nobody replies, maybe someone of you guys have good datalogs?

HGP clutches work quite well cause they use the factory friction material, and increase the amount of plates. After installation the gearbox can be quite rough, and noisy, will get better after a while. TVS re-tunes HPA/HGP/MTM cars allot. The engine power is way lower then listed on their website. I remember a Golf V R32 GT35 HGP doing 411hp instead of the 490hp. They re-mapped the engine, power increased(cannot remember check their facebook +/-450hp)) , and DSG could not hold anymore. It had the 7-plate HGP clutch. They put in new DSG software and the clutch holds. The HGP/HPA clutch is fine and almost identical to the TVS clutch, TVS changes not just the plates but also the housing, and that’s what it is all about
Admin sorry I hope this is not too much advertisement in your eyes, it’s my true firsthand experience and hopefully helps people understanding this complex subject.

Well enough for now, maybe more info if I have time but think not due deadline. Another Student is working on a new DSGdokter.nl website with all info listed. Check their facebook for now!
In short there will also be a DSG community forum online with all info about DSG-tuning. And my test-machine will be shown off there as well I hope
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Old 07-16-2015, 05:32 PM   #42
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WUT...
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