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plac
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real good? maybe low 5's to mid 5's on a K04 upgrade?? tires very dependent on this number.
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MK6 GTI TSI Unitronic Chipped Stage 2+ a.k.a K04 - first drive
- Thread starter ZGTI
- Start date
real good? maybe low 5's to mid 5's on a K04 upgrade?? tires very dependent on this number.
ZGTI
Banned
ok people, today CarWorks GTi (that one in the videos) was reviewed by the biggest mainstream car magazine in our country.
All hooked up with V-box tools etc.
So, a question:
What would you say is a real good 0-100km/h (0-60miles is 0-97km) v-box time?
(2 People + equipment, Average of 2 consequtive passes, one in each direction)
Woww Congrats on the magazine review :thumbsup:
once u get the the magazine review try to post up some data
i say low 5.2 sec 0 to 60 Mph :iono:
Arin@APR
GOLFMK7 Official Sponsor
Really? What do you think its pushing out? I thought the APR K04 makes 334 hp so assuming ~10% drivetrain loss, that would put it a hair over 300whp. What makes the Unitronic so much more powerful?
Not trying to start a company war here or anything, I was just under the impression that all tunes are relatively similar and the power gains, assuming all other mods are identical, would be comparable.
The dyno you posted above is of an average of the results I got at APR, at the wheels, on 93 octane with only 10% drivetrain loss.
Unitronics results are of the engine on an engine dyno, removed from the car and are at the crank.
The two numbers are not comparable at all as they are not even measured the same way. They are totally different and I'm sure my drivetain loss calculations are very conservative. I rather underestimate than over estimate and piss people off when the resutls are not the same.
In europe on a maha which calculates drivetrain loss, the APR K04 puts down 370 HP!
Look at that flat torque cuve and steady rising HP curve which flattens off at the top. That's a hell of a car to drive.
Very simple, some people will agree and some will not.
I will tell you my point of view.
First, all tuners are reliable. If anyone tries to convince you otherwise, it’s a B.S./ Marketing
As well, they all have the same performance, most of them do.. but not APR.
I will explain, GIAC K04 makes more power then APR k04 and same goes for Unitronic.. I have no idea about Revo but i know their software is solid...
The reason is that APR is able to do so but they won’t because of their Stage 3.
Their stage 3 is 374 HP
GIAC and Unitronic are close to 350 HP +
What would you think will happen if APR boost their K04 to it’s potential ?? What would happen to the Stage 3 ???
Would you really spend 6000$ for 20 -25HP more ?? for 3000$ more ?? how are they gona justify to the client that their KO4 is 350HP that is 3000$ and their Stage 3 is 6000$.374$ (Get it ?? )
If they do so their Stage 3 will be impacted.
So it is strategy plain and simple, to Keep the K04 at 334H and the Stage 3 at 374 HP ! Did u get the bigger picture here ?
My opinion is, if you’re upgrading your turbo you should go K04 (pick the hardware you like) and pick the tuner you like between (Unitronic, Giac or Revo) or go straight Big Turbo GT30 and up, don’t waist your money in between. I’ve been in this path for 5 month investigating and decided to go BT and went with the EJ400 GT3071R/ Unitronic tune ..
Oh the hype about the potential to grow to stage 3 + .. up to now it's a Hype.. it didn't happen previously with the Stage 3 FSI and nothing happen till today for the TSI ..
:thumbsup:
Oh for the love of God.
Ziad Zreik, you are so far up Unitronics ass it's rediculous.
If you honestly think we are holding back on the k04, why would be be runnign more boost than Unitronic? If we wanted to hold back power, we'd just lower boost. We are running more than unitronic.
APR redline = near 20 psi
Unitronic redline = near 15 psi.
See the graph:
So where do we need to 'boost it up to its potential'? There's not much more you can even get out of that turbo by redline! Running more boost down low causes a lot of audible compressor surge. So Zaid, what's left? Where do we 'turn up the boost'?
Stage 3 is running even more boost than the k04 simply becuase it's a larger turbo that can actually flow more than the k04. There is no fall in boost at redline and the turbo is more efficient. The entire stage 3 turbo system is totally different compared to the k04. it has a huge turbo inlet, bigger compressor and turbine wheels, and a higher flow higher temp resistent manifold. The turbocharger is all Ball bearing vs journal bearing.
You are absolutely insane if you think we are holding back power on the k04 and the boost log and 'engine figure' dyno from europe shows otherwise. No one here cares if we sell more stage 3 kits or more k04 kits either. They target two completely different markets. If we honestly cared about stage 3 sales, we'd skip the k04 all together.
Unitronic, Carworks, good job guys.
Ziad Zreik, give it a rest.
-Arin
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ZGTI
Banned
Arin Ahnell, I'm a big fan of Unitronic. However, it doesn't justify your Bullshit
Hehe Arin Ahnell, are you serious? maybe this will refresh your memory http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5128417-New-GIAC-k04-file-dyno&highlight=GIAC+k04
APR 295 WHP ( 13% = 333HP) vs GIAC (310WHP+ 13% = 350) … your K04 put down 370 in Greece ( The Dyno was located in Mykonos ) :lol: and your Stage 3 put down 377HP in Poland.. What ?? are u kidding me... Get your shit straight...
Posted on 02-18-2011 and you replied Reply 02-23-2011, 5 days to get back with the info Arin now go back to your APR staff and ask them to get their shit together and give u the right informations..
And yes I still say you are holding back Or your software is conservative same as your stage 1 and 2 …
P.S : Actually, yes I’m up Unitronics ass .. looking for you Arin :lol:
Arin Ahnell, Now I have a wedding next month, I heard you are a great photographer can you ask APR if I could borrow you for some wedding shots !!!
Hehe Arin Ahnell, are you serious? maybe this will refresh your memory http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5128417-New-GIAC-k04-file-dyno&highlight=GIAC+k04
APR 295 WHP ( 13% = 333HP) vs GIAC (310WHP+ 13% = 350) … your K04 put down 370 in Greece ( The Dyno was located in Mykonos ) :lol: and your Stage 3 put down 377HP in Poland
.. What ?? are u kidding me... Get your shit straight... Posted on 02-18-2011 and you replied Reply 02-23-2011, 5 days to get back with the info Arin
now go back to your APR staff and ask them to get their shit together and give u the right informations.. And yes I still say you are holding back Or your software is conservative same as your stage 1 and 2 …
P.S : Actually, yes I’m up Unitronics ass .. looking for you Arin :lol:
Arin Ahnell, Now I have a wedding next month, I heard you are a great photographer can you ask APR if I could borrow you for some wedding shots !!!
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Arin@APR
GOLFMK7 Official Sponsor
I'm assuming this is a personal attack however I don't see how this is an attack at all. Am I missing something here? Is it somehow a bad thing to be good a photography? Call me crazy but this is the media forum, I think people will disagree with you on that one but it's nice to see you just attacked everyone who participates here with their own photography.
Hehe Arin, are you serious? maybe this will refresh your memory http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5128417-New-GIAC-k04-file-dyno&highlight=GIAC+k04
APR 295 WHP ( 13% = 333HP) vs GIAC (310WHP+ 13% = 350) … your K04 put down 370 in Greece ( The Dyno was located in Mykonos ) :lol: and your Stage 3 put down 377HP in Poland
Dyno in the summer with APR vs Dyno in the winter with GIAC. Hardly a good comparison. Good thing that dyno chart doesn't show "shift quality" because Stanzle was pretty upset with that the last he spoke with me.
We are purposely not running more boost down low because we wanted a flat torque curve and did not want the turbo to surge loudly. GIAC chose to run more in that area. That's their choice and that's fine with us! GIAC is still falling off dramatically at redline while the APR tune keeps going. This would be vary apparent on a 6MT that goes all the way to redline, and not a DSG that shifts at 6400. And this is a file that is not warranted by AWE. This is GIAC's 'extreme' file vs APR's production "Everyone get's it" file. Do we really want to get into a battle over "extreme" files? If so, count me out. I don't care what other tuners produce... They can make 500 HP on a k04 if they want. That's fine with me.
So, back to Unitronic... what's up with the boost? Why is APR running so much more boost towards redline? Where are we holding back? Please, in your expert opinion, where are we holding back? I'd like to see one place where we have held back when we safely could do otherwise.
Posted on 02-18-2011 and you replied Reply 02-23-2011, 5 days to get back with the info Arin
Do you honestly believe it took me more than 10 minutes to come up with my response? Today was the first I ever saw this thread. I don't read the media section every day. I read the technical section.
Awesome! I'm glad you think we are holding back with our stage 1 and 2 software. Since you are a professional tuner, maybe you could explain how we are holding back when there is still safe power left to achieve? On the dyno we've taken the tune as aggressive as possible. We run 100% wastegate duty cycle and turned off component protection routines. The results? Not much more power, but a less reliable turbocharger. Totally worthless. Why would we sell that to customers?
We don't chase numbers. We produce what we prove is safe and powerful. It's difficult for anyone driving one of our cars to say it's not powerful.
Zaid, you can believe what ever you want. Just don't expect to rattle off garbage without any data to backup your claims.
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chippedgti
Go Kart Champion
i pull apr all day in my stage 2 unitronic mk6!
ZGTI
Banned
Trust me, if i'm attacking you personally, you will know !! however i was serious
I don't know who gave u this is information but it is false !!!
Now, most of the Op''s on this forum that have or had APR tune they claim that for sure it is powerful compare to stock yet conservative to other tuners .. Why ??? Coincidence ??? APR has this reputation Arin and you know it !! you could say what ever you want but this is coming from your own clients !!
Unitronic has more agressive tune with less boost yet reliable ?? how ?? Like you always mentioned, i can't say how.. not to reveal the secret to our Competitors
Hint : the magic is not in the boost.
P.S : This debate is not going to go anywhere Arin, let the clients decide for them self !!
I don't know who gave u this is information but it is false !!!
Now, most of the Op''s on this forum that have or had APR tune they claim that for sure it is powerful compare to stock yet conservative to other tuners .. Why ??? Coincidence ??? APR has this reputation Arin and you know it !! you could say what ever you want but this is coming from your own clients !!
Unitronic has more agressive tune with less boost yet reliable ?? how ?? Like you always mentioned, i can't say how.. not to reveal the secret to our Competitors
Hint : the magic is not in the boost.
P.S : This debate is not going to go anywhere Arin, let the clients decide for them self !!
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NewToVW
Automotive Ninja
What's interesting about this graph is that to make similar power to APR's tune, but by running less boost, you have to run a scary amount of ignition timing advance (I'll assume equal A/F's for simplicity's sake). Boost is hard on a turbo; timing is hard on rod bearings. Turbos are cheap and easy to replace; rod bearings = motor failure = $$$. If you don't understand why timing advance is extremely hard on a motor, crack an EFI engine tuning textbook and study up. It's nuts.
I will always prefer a tune with more boost and less timing. It's so much safer, and usually nets very similar power to other methods. The only downside is it requires better intercooling and the turbo may not last as long. Those are simple fixes and with an OEM turbo, I'm not really concerned about its longevity. Thank you APR for tuning with this logic.
I will always prefer a tune with more boost and less timing. It's so much safer, and usually nets very similar power to other methods. The only downside is it requires better intercooling and the turbo may not last as long. Those are simple fixes and with an OEM turbo, I'm not really concerned about its longevity. Thank you APR for tuning with this logic.
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wow!!! is this thread hijacked or what??
Arin, first of all, thank you for your kind words. we try our best and let results speak for themselves.
now, if APR is prepared to stand behind your words of superiority, I have a challenge.
Communicate with who you have to and respond please.
zgti, please, if you need to discuss apr do it in another thread.
I believe this thread was/is about carworks unitronic chipped golf mk6 st2+ ?
newinvw, each serious tuner has his secrets. secrets that are the outcome of his R&D and knowledge.
you are totally wrong in what you say here about engine safety.
I can show you a video where we go full throttle in an k04-equipped engine without stop, and instead of engine getting damaged like you suggest, the intercooler to turbo pipes melt their weld points and crack open and turbine mani gets crack when cooling down after taking so much extensive heat, but engine remains 1000% operational.
so you think about that for a while and maybe reconsider about unitronic and engine safety
Arin, first of all, thank you for your kind words. we try our best and let results speak for themselves.
now, if APR is prepared to stand behind your words of superiority, I have a challenge.
Communicate with who you have to and respond please.
zgti, please, if you need to discuss apr do it in another thread.
I believe this thread was/is about carworks unitronic chipped golf mk6 st2+ ?
newinvw, each serious tuner has his secrets. secrets that are the outcome of his R&D and knowledge.
you are totally wrong in what you say here about engine safety.
I can show you a video where we go full throttle in an k04-equipped engine without stop, and instead of engine getting damaged like you suggest, the intercooler to turbo pipes melt their weld points and crack open and turbine mani gets crack when cooling down after taking so much extensive heat, but engine remains 1000% operational.
so you think about that for a while and maybe reconsider about unitronic and engine safety
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ZGTI
Banned
My bad, I won't discuss APR in this thread anymore
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NewToVW
Automotive Ninja
I didn't mean to imply that Uni's tune was unsafe. I'm sure it's within acceptable margins of safety and is obviously putting down great power.
All of the tuners claim magic secrets. But, I've actually tuned project cars with standalone ECUs. Ignoring hardware, there are three tuning ingredients on a turbo car. Boost (X), timing (Y), and fuel (Z). These are the three things a tuner can control vs RPM at WOT to make more power. Note: on cars with variable cam timing and intake flaps, you can change the activation points as well to alter when the airflow changes occur, but these changes usually affect driveability more that ultimate WOT power.
If one combination of X Y Z = 300 whp, then another combination which uses less X to make the same 300 whp has to get more aggressive on the Y and/or the Z. It's just physics; not secrets. More hp is the result of a more powerful explosion in the combustion chamber.
Each tuner has their preferred methodology on which combination of X Y Z they like to employ. There are pros and cons to each method. I know what combination I like.
ZGTI
Banned
Update :
Source : Carworks
VBOX TESTED: 0-100km/h 5,3sec or 0 to 62MPH 5.3 Sec
So 0 to 60 Mph you looking at 5.2 sec
Drive magazine standards:
2 persons, Full equipment, 3/4 gas tank, full load car, street tires, public road, pump gas, average time of 2 sequential passes, one in each direction.
Source : Carworks
VBOX TESTED: 0-100km/h 5,3sec or 0 to 62MPH 5.3 Sec
So 0 to 60 Mph you looking at 5.2 sec
Drive magazine standards:
2 persons, Full equipment, 3/4 gas tank, full load car, street tires, public road, pump gas, average time of 2 sequential passes, one in each direction.
CDUBBGTI91
Go Kart Champion
It would be nicer if the video wasn't so damn blurry and shaky lol. Plus for those of us who drive the American GTI the video gives us a placebo effect of the speed because you have to remember it's in kph instead of mph. So when the video says 162ish its roughly only 100mph so in essance the video is a bit misleading. Quick runs but not oh shit fast! Sorry didn't want to Shiiiteee all over the thread but it's still cool seeing what a k04 can do.