greasyginzo
Go Kart Champion
They definitely will not be using a different turbo. That is the their whole draw with this kit. Is it uses a Twin Scroll EFR turbo.
6
Integrated Engineering's IE450T kit
- Thread starter GlowstickNinja21
- Start date
They definitely will not be using a different turbo. That is the their whole draw with this kit. Is it uses a Twin Scroll EFR turbo.
Coogles
Go Kart Newbie
It's strange, APR's Stage III GTX kit for the Golf R is $6,500, but for the TSI it's "only" $5,400. The only real hardware difference I see between the two is that the FSI version of the kit includes a turbo outlet pipe and the TSI version doesn't. The rest of the $1,100 is just a Golf R tax?
If the TSI kit from IE is still $7,000 and the APR GTX kit is $5,400 that does open the gap some between the two kits, as nice as the IE kit looks to be.
pretty much. look at the tt-rs kit. what the hell makes it double the price of the golf r kit?
Tyler@IE
Go Kart Newbie
I have no idea what the pricing will be on the TSI kit so far, but we will not be re-casting everything for a different turbo. The twin-scroll EFR is the whole idea behind these kits, and the driving force behind the huge power potential and lightening fast spool.
I can't really speak for APR on this, but if I had to guess (and its a pretty good guess because we have the same issues) it comes down to manufacturing costs. There are a ton more TSI GTIs then there are Golf Rs, and a ton more of those than the very limited TTRS. It cost the same for a company like us or APR to manufacture certain kit components for 10,000 as it does 2000. The cost to engineer, design, test, protoype, build fixtures, design and build molds, tooling, and machine time is the same if you are building one piece or a billion. That cost needs to be made up on limited run vehicles, such as the TTRS where only 1000 were even sold. If you are selling fewer quantity, the parts require a higher cost.
flipflp
Autocross Newbie
I wish I understood the need to complain about pricing.
If you think its priced too high, don't buy it. If it's just out of your budget but you still want it, raise your budget. If the whole world ends up thinking it's priced too high, then IE will be forced to adjust their pricing for the market. Just because you think it should be priced closer to a competitors "similar-ish, sorta" kit means nothing.
If you think its priced too high, don't buy it. If it's just out of your budget but you still want it, raise your budget. If the whole world ends up thinking it's priced too high, then IE will be forced to adjust their pricing for the market. Just because you think it should be priced closer to a competitors "similar-ish, sorta" kit means nothing.
jettaglx91
Go Kart Champion
don't forget the TTRS kit is completely different hardware wise, and much more limited market like Tyler said.
The manifold/downpipe/hardware is specific to the TTRS and doesn't cross over to any other kits which alone makes those parts cost more. It also has many extra or more expensive parts versus the 2.0T kits like GTX35, external wastegate, ceramic coated housings, heat blankets and shields, all braided lines, etc. Doesn't seem like much but a couple hundred here, couple hundred there ads up quick.
The manifold/downpipe/hardware is specific to the TTRS and doesn't cross over to any other kits which alone makes those parts cost more. It also has many extra or more expensive parts versus the 2.0T kits like GTX35, external wastegate, ceramic coated housings, heat blankets and shields, all braided lines, etc. Doesn't seem like much but a couple hundred here, couple hundred there ads up quick.
Arin@APR
GOLFMK7 Official Sponsor
The major components in our Golf R kit have been around for nearly a decade and are used on multiple engines and platforms. Most of the components can be purchased in bulk to lower their individual piece price. While still not cheap, it helps.
The TT RS, on the other hand, was designed for one engine and one vehicle. It uses larger components that are more expensive such as the GTX35 turbo with tial SS housing and tial external wastegate. It has swaintech coating on several components, a custom heat blankets, and the manifold even has an extra inconel runner and flange that needs machined. The downpipe also is more complex as it connects to multiple points, everything is VBand, and there are more custom braided lines for the watercooled wastegate. The inlet is cast and includes gold shielding, oh, and there's one more spark plug. Ordering these parts in smaller quantities means higher prices on our end. Covering R&D as well as tooling costs on a platform this low volume also presents it's own challenges. On top of it all, owning, operating and ensuring the vehicle is more expensive so it all adds up.
Hope that makes sense.
flipflp
Autocross Newbie
:lol:
Arin@APR
GOLFMK7 Official Sponsor
We all know it's expensive, but it is a turbo kit for a TT RS. No one needs it, but people do want it. We probably shouldn't have spent over a year developing it when we could have made other products that sell faster and make us more money, but we chose to do it because we're enthusiasts in an enthusiast market and want to provide our customers with fun and excitement. We're also one of the only companies to do it and as far as I'm aware, we're the only ones to do it with an investment cast inconel manifold and full drop in system, with software, that's not based on a hybrid turbo. To do that, we NEED to make money on the system, or it's not worth our time and effort.
Also, I don't think you're looking at the numbers like a business would. We're not selling parts at cost. We're not selling them for a fixed dollar amount over cost either. We don't simply chose a value we want to make, and apply that to all the products we sell, regardless of how much they cost in raw materials alone. Typically it's based off of a percentage that's derived from many different metrics. We need to account for our massive R&D costs, the cost of the vehicle, expensive tooling charges, expensive products sitting on our shelfs since they aren't built one at a time, and so forth. It adds up quickly, especially so on a low volume platform.
The amount of R&D, and calibration time we've put into this project to make it the absolute best we can accounts for the price difference. If that's not an acceptable answer, just assume we're a business that wants to make fun products and needs money to do so. :thumbsup:
Tyler, sorry for buggering up your thread but I think much of what I'm saying here applies to you guys too. Good luck with the kit!
GlowstickNinja21
Ready to race!
From an engineering standpoint, consumers generally do not know the full extent of what things cost to produce. When I say produce, I mean manufacture for mass production. Tooling costs for molds is expensive, having employees to design the parts is expensive, basically everything about the process is expensive. I am sure there is a cost analysis that comes into play, at least it does at my company, where the company has a break even point and when they start making profit on the product, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was measured in years. The less demand for a product means an extended payoff of the development costs, or a higher priced product.
If you were to build a one-off kit for yourself, yes it would probably be cheaper in the long run, but you will suffer from tuning issues, the like that these companies spent a year or more tweaking, at their cost, to remedy. You have to remember these kits are developed for reliability and be able to have the results and the parts re-produced correctly every time the kit is installed or manufactured.
Like I always said, you have to have money to play this game, if you don't have the money, play a different game.
If you were to build a one-off kit for yourself, yes it would probably be cheaper in the long run, but you will suffer from tuning issues, the like that these companies spent a year or more tweaking, at their cost, to remedy. You have to remember these kits are developed for reliability and be able to have the results and the parts re-produced correctly every time the kit is installed or manufactured.
Like I always said, you have to have money to play this game, if you don't have the money, play a different game.
i mean it's pretty simple. if consumers don't see the value then it doesn't matter if it's made of solid gold. there are plenty of people interested and once you pay the intial tooling costs, manufacturing isn't much. you pay operators to watch the machines run, and maintenance. there's more reasons to why there is so much cost variation between production design and final costs. just look at the prices of intakes and exhausts. similar if not same recipes, but prices range from $100 to $400+. If you don't think you're paying for brand then you can stay in ignorance but it's obvious.
Tyler@IE
Go Kart Newbie
Of course I do not mind Aaron, there are only two companies manufacturing kits in this quality, fit, and performance, that I can think of. To do so requires massive R&D, manufacturing investments, advertising, etc... there is a lot more to these kits than you can price-per-part, but the final products for those lucky owners speak for itself.
Tyler@IE
Go Kart Newbie
Also, building your own version of this kit would be very difficult to match in quality, doing a one-off casting is going to be more expensive than this kit, which means for those parts you will be hand fabricating and welding, that opens the door for a whole lot of fitment, cracking, and reliability issues down the line. Not to mention the amount of time involved. If you are paying someone else to fabricate those, then its likely to add up. If you are using off-the shelf imported less expensive parts (I know that's a popular market) the quality, fitment, finish, part lifetime, and performance isn't going to match what a top-shelf kit will deliver.
flipflp
Autocross Newbie
We get it man, you're not going to buy one. :w00t: