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Car overheating on track days...(Use distilled water or WaterWetter?)

I too am APR K04 and track very hard on road courses. If its warmer than 70*F outside, temps will get to 240+ very quickly, usually meaning I have to back off, and hopes for good times that day go down.

I have heard of others running a 70/30 mix of dist. water and coolant, but the owners manual states you should not run less than 60/40 dist. water and coolant. I was going to do a full coolant flush (to remove the possibility theres air in the thermostat as the radiator has been removed a few times now) and swap to that, as well as add water wetter.

Will report with findings

I have the exact same setup with the exact same problem - my Mk6 GTI w/K04 gets to 240+ very quickly on track, even on very cool mornings (albeit, I live in AZ). I've got an an auxiliary oil cooler installed inside the engine bay with its own fan, which makes almost no difference for coolant temps on track - go figure. Wish our US GTIs came with oil temp sensors, so I knew if it was helping.... anyway, from some consulting with a few "experts", including Ron Davis, who happens to be a friend of mine, I've got three routes I'm considering at this point to solve this:

1) upgraded main radiator **
2) finding a way to install auxiliary rads (like on the Golf R)
3) divorcing the coolant system from the oil system somehow, to stop the oil temps from affecting the coolant. Tryolsport recommended this when I talked with them, but didn't have a solution available anymore.
** My other issue is my GTI happens to be a CBFA engine, so upgrading the radiator guarantees a CEL, and nobody I've talked to believes they can work around it, besides Ron Davis, who is the most expensive.

Ron Davis also recommended ensuring I was getting optimal airflow to the radiator, including possibly damming air up into the rad, and to look for possible areas of low pressure to create vents to increase airflow. I don't know how feasible the former would be on a Mk6 though.

Anyway, just wondered if you'd had any luck since you last posted, including your change in mixture, water wetter ,etc... Also, if anyone with a Mk6 is interested in going in with me to have Ron Davis make a few world-class aftermarket rads for us at a reduced cost, I'd definitely consider that heavily...
 

GIACUser

Master Wallet Mechanic
I have the exact same setup with the exact same problem - my Mk6 GTI w/K04 gets to 240+ very quickly on track, even on very cool mornings (albeit, I live in AZ). I've got an an auxiliary oil cooler installed inside the engine bay with its own fan, which makes almost no difference for coolant temps on track - go figure. Wish our US GTIs came with oil temp sensors, so I knew if it was helping.... anyway, from some consulting with a few "experts", including Ron Davis, who happens to be a friend of mine, I've got three routes I'm considering at this point to solve this:

1) upgraded main radiator **
2) finding a way to install auxiliary rads (like on the Golf R)
3) divorcing the coolant system from the oil system somehow, to stop the oil temps from affecting the coolant. Tryolsport recommended this when I talked with them, but didn't have a solution available anymore.
** My other issue is my GTI happens to be a CBFA engine, so upgrading the radiator guarantees a CEL, and nobody I've talked to believes they can work around it, besides Ron Davis, who is the most expensive.

Ron Davis also recommended ensuring I was getting optimal airflow to the radiator, including possibly damming air up into the rad, and to look for possible areas of low pressure to create vents to increase airflow. I don't know how feasible the former would be on a Mk6 though.

Anyway, just wondered if you'd had any luck since you last posted, including your change in mixture, water wetter ,etc... Also, if anyone with a Mk6 is interested in going in with me to have Ron Davis make a few world-class aftermarket rads for us at a reduced cost, I'd definitely consider that heavily...

What are you doing currently to provide increased cooling? Which intercooler are you running? What water/coolant ratio are you running? Which radiator are you running? Do you have any aux DSG cooling system?
 

jay745

What Would Glenn Danzig Do

MrFancypants

Autocross Champion
Because I always have to understand "but why????" I did some searching and came across this explanation...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency#Internal_combustion_engines

Modern gasoline engines have a maximum thermal efficiency of about 25% to 50% when used to power a car. In other words, even when the engine is operating at its point of maximum thermal efficiency, of the total heat energy released by the gasoline consumed, about 50-75% is rejected as heat without being turned into useful work, i.e. turning the crankshaft. Approximately half of this rejected heat is carried away by the exhaust gases, and half passes through the cylinder walls or cylinder head into the engine cooling system, and is passed to the atmosphere via the cooling system radiator. Some of the work generated is also lost as friction, noise, air turbulence, and work used to turn engine equipment and appliances such as water and oil pumps and the electrical generator, leaving only about 25-50% of the energy released by the fuel consumed available to move the vehicle.

So the answer to why this is happening on K04 cars is..... more fuel means more heat, it's as simple as that.

If you have a K04 and you're overheating your options are:

1. improve the car's ability to remove heat via coolant or oil (better radiator, oil cooler)
2. burn less fuel (less boost)

I know some of you are thinking yeah, DUH. But I'm sharing anyway to emphasize the point that maybe if you're going to do track events in these cars you shouldn't run the high output tunes that are created without regard for the cooling system's ability to deal with the heat generated from 15+ minutes with your foot on the floor.
 

Jeffs2013GTI

Drag Race Newbie
Because I always have to understand "but why????" I did some searching and came across this explanation...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency#Internal_combustion_engines



So the answer to why this is happening on K04 cars is..... more fuel means more heat, it's as simple as that.

If you have a K04 and you're overheating your options are:

1. improve the car's ability to remove heat via coolant or oil (better radiator, oil cooler)
2. burn less fuel (less boost)

I know some of you are thinking yeah, DUH. But I'm sharing anyway to emphasize the point that maybe if you're going to do track events in these cars you shouldn't run the high output tunes that are created without regard for the cooling system's ability to deal with the heat generated from 15+ minutes with your foot on the floor.

The points you make are very valid. I thought I saw somewhere a thread about an upgraded Oil Pan that held like 2 quarts more oil. I will look for it. Some folks you should call is APR because they race their GTI's and may have an answer for you.

There are many options, I just am not too familiar with this platform to think my options would work. I would not recommend the Use of Water Wetter in our GTI's though, there was a thread about that too, if you are going to use something like that use Purple Ice. Various type of coolers will help, at least with oil temps, coolant temps though, a larger radiator can you VAGCOM the CBFA so the cell light does not come on with an upgraded aluminum radiator?

Call APR. Then report back to us please....Im curious to their suggestions.


Jeff
 

clownish

just clowning around
I have one, still have cooling issues when tracking. Next plan is removing the fmic, swapping to a sandwich IC and running an oil cooler


Did yours install cleanly? The 2-3 Ive seen installed in person have all required some work to install i.e. Tapping hardware points or having to warranty because of leaking issues - it was not a plug and play install. That $1000 price tag makes it harder to swallow when it's not an easy install compared to a few hundred for an OEM radiator.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

MrFancypants

Autocross Champion
The points you make are very valid. I thought I saw somewhere a thread about an upgraded Oil Pan that held like 2 quarts more oil. I will look for it. Some folks you should call is APR because they race their GTI's and may have an answer for you.

There are many options, I just am not too familiar with this platform to think my options would work. I would not recommend the Use of Water Wetter in our GTI's though, there was a thread about that too, if you are going to use something like that use Purple Ice. Various type of coolers will help, at least with oil temps, coolant temps though, a larger radiator can you VAGCOM the CBFA so the cell light does not come on with an upgraded aluminum radiator?

Call APR. Then report back to us please....Im curious to their suggestions.


Jeff

The larger oil pan should help, but I don't think I'd count on that alone. You'll certainly want to take logs of the coolant temp over the course of a session and if you see it trend upward at all you'll need to make more adjustments.

A setup I would consider is to install a water injection system and use it purely as "liquid intercooler" to keep IATs under control so you can run the thinnest physical intercooler to maximize airflow to the radiator itself.

On the street you can run water/meth through it with a high output tune for giggles where you don't have to worry about temp creep and overheating. On the track run a lower output tune with only water meant to keep your foot on the floor for 25 minutes at a time.
 

Jeffs2013GTI

Drag Race Newbie
The larger oil pan should help, but I don't think I'd count on that alone. You'll certainly want to take logs of the coolant temp over the course of a session and if you see it trend upward at all you'll need to make more adjustments.

A setup I would consider is to install a water injection system and use it purely as "liquid intercooler" to keep IATs under control so you can run the thinnest physical intercooler to maximize airflow to the radiator itself.

On the street you can run water/meth through it with a high output tune for giggles where you don't have to worry about temp creep and overheating. On the track run a lower output tune with only water meant to keep your foot on the floor for 25 minutes at a time.

You are right in Theory. Again, APR has years of racing experience and they would have more "hands on" experience than any of us. Be best to ask their advice. :thumbsup:

Jeff
 

MrFancypants

Autocross Champion
You are right in Theory. Again, APR has years of racing experience and they would have more "hands on" experience than any of us. Be best to ask their advice. :thumbsup:

Jeff

Certainly, their first hand knowledge pretty much supersedes any forum speculation. But in the absence of that data you can still make some educated guesses.
 

Jeffs2013GTI

Drag Race Newbie
Certainly, their first hand knowledge pretty much supersedes any forum speculation. But in the absence of that data you can still make some educated guesses.

Indeed, totally agree, I think we are all on the same page, but this guy needs answers not our mutual agreed upon guess's. I am curious to know the answer myself because I am considering a K04 part time track car build and where I live is usually the warmest in the country during the summer months so this is a big deal to me. If I cant keep the car cool, then I may pass on the build all together.

So OP if you contact APR Please share with us...:thumbsup:


Jeff
 

MrFancypants

Autocross Champion
If you're talking about David he has plenty of answers and things to try. I don't see that he mentioned who tuned his car but the least invasive first step seems to be to see what happens with less boost. If he's running an AccessPort that should be pretty easy and cheap.


You're eventually going to run into this problem with most cars. From a few minutes of research my impression is that the Ford ST twins have it worse, because I've seen some mention that they can overheat with a tune on the stock turbo. It's not just limited to turbo fours either, the 370Z struggles with this, so does the GT350 (non R) and Z06, and these three have cooling problems right off the assembly line.

At least we can push the K03 to it's ragged edge and the temps seem to stay under control.

I've thought about this just like you are because I'd like to get my GTI on the track and it certainly gets just as hot here as it does there. I've looked at the other options and there aren't really any better ones. I don't think there are many vehicles that can handle a roughly 75% increase in horsepower that can handle being run flat out for 25 minutes without some cooling system upgrades.
 

Jeffs2013GTI

Drag Race Newbie
If you're talking about David he has plenty of answers and things to try. I don't see that he mentioned who tuned his car but the least invasive first step seems to be to see what happens with less boost. If he's running an AccessPort that should be pretty easy and cheap.


You're eventually going to run into this problem with most cars. From a few minutes of research my impression is that the Ford ST twins have it worse, because I've seen some mention that they can overheat with a tune on the stock turbo. It's not just limited to turbo fours either, the 370Z struggles with this, so does the GT350 (non R) and Z06, and these three have cooling problems right off the assembly line.

At least we can push the K03 to it's ragged edge and the temps seem to stay under control.

I've thought about this just like you are because I'd like to get my GTI on the track and it certainly gets just as hot here as it does there. I've looked at the other options and there aren't really any better ones. I don't think there are many vehicles that can handle a roughly 75% increase in horsepower that can handle being run flat out for 25 minutes without some cooling system upgrades.

Yes its very true, I did track my Evo 9 MR at least twice a month in 100+F heat at Chuckawalla Raceway in Blythe, CA which is probably one of the "hottest" tracks, Literally speaking in the USA. My Evo on E85 stock Turbo was making roughly 400whp, 392 to be exact and it dyno'd at 225 stock so almost 200 whp more than stock, I never had an over heating issue. Not Once. My sessions would be about 20 minutes each, Idle cool downs in between.

Some cars have better designs than others that is for sure. Evo X's I have seen get warm, but my 9 never did. I ran stock Radiator too. Just saying.

I think I am going to pass on the K04 build. Looks like a potential problem that I am not willing to deal with on my particular car. I am thinking just Stage II, Downpipe and I/C and supporting mods like Coil packs and such. If the K03 maxed out doesn't have over heating issues, then to me that is the better route to go.

Thoughts.


Jeff
 

GIACUser

Master Wallet Mechanic
Yes its very true, I did track my Evo 9 MR at least twice a month in 100+F heat at Chuckawalla Raceway in Blythe, CA which is probably one of the "hottest" tracks, Literally speaking in the USA. My Evo on E85 stock Turbo was making roughly 400whp, 392 to be exact and it dyno'd at 225 stock so almost 200 whp more than stock, I never had an over heating issue. Not Once. My sessions would be about 20 minutes each, Idle cool downs in between.

Some cars have better designs than others that is for sure. Evo X's I have seen get warm, but my 9 never did. I ran stock Radiator too. Just saying.

I think I am going to pass on the K04 build. Looks like a potential problem that I am not willing to deal with on my particular car. I am thinking just Stage II, Downpipe and I/C and supporting mods like Coil packs and such. If the K03 maxed out doesn't have over heating issues, then to me that is the better route to go.

Thoughts.


Jeff

Many many folks have tracked K04 cars without heat issues, including me for the last few years. Don't pass up the K04 if you have the finances to afford the conversion. It transforms the car.

The folks with heat issues are the exception, modified K04 cars don't consistently or inherently have heat issues. I live in a hot climate and using an APR intercooler (not fmic) and water meth my car has done fine at the track running a race type tune in very hot weather 100+ degrees (stock radiator).
 

Jeffs2013GTI

Drag Race Newbie
Many many folks have tracked K04 cars without heat issues, including me for the last few years. Don't pass up the K04 if you have the finances to afford the conversion. It transforms the car.

The folks with heat issues are the exception, modified K04 cars don't consistently or inherently have heat issues. I live in a hot climate and using an APR intercooler (not fmic) and water meth my car has done fine at the track running a race type tune in very hot weather 100+ degrees (stock radiator).

well if your running WMI that could be your savior. Seems to be a pretty common problem from people I have been PM'ing on the forums that have K04's and track their cars.

What track to you race at, and what ambient air temps are there? Last time I went to the track in my 9 MR at chuckawalla raceway track temps were 130F:yikes: I still had no over heating problems. This was in late 2012 before I bought my GTI. Have not been back since, but where I live?? 90% of the time is the warmest spot in the USA from June-September. Crazy here. haha

Others have posted problems running in much cooler places. May not be an inherent problem, but still a potential problem. Who knows right? Dropping that kind of dime though I would want no overheating issues at all. Maybe I am asking too much? or being overly optimistic?

Jeff
 
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