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Old 05-18-2011, 08:57 AM   #57
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Understandable. I myself feel Honda designers (One step above what we do) have lost track at what people REALLY see us as. Acura has SOOOOO much potential yet they wont expand upon it. I think the TSX was a REALLY good idea and platform, but fell short with just an I4 offering. V6 DI engine with SH-AWD would make that thing a BEAST!!!

Their technology is VERY simplified and intuitive. Nothing complex like Mercedes, BMW, or any other of the luxury brands. And thats why people love them so much. They can make the same thing for cheaper. Well...almost the same.

I wish I could share some details. But Honda knows what they need to do. Trust me....we do. I just hope they can put down the sales numbers for one bit and focus on ideas and changing the market. Our quality (Thanks to me lol I kid I kid) is superb and reliability is through the roof, just no offerings of performance or FUN cars.

I wish I was higher in the food chain lol
What I don't like about Honda really is their insistence to exclude North American with their more interesting cars....They don't necessarily need bigger engine or AWD, on something like a TSX or Civic, thats not how Honda's car are positioned in market. But their Type R car and with high power I4 or more performance oriented chassis tuning should attract more enthusiast to them.

Doesn't help though that Honda worldwide now has start to move away from enthusiasts in general....
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Old 05-18-2011, 09:00 AM   #58
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Having had an 08' Si Sedan with H/I/E when I kept up (not passed or got walked on) a lightly tuned MK5 DSG GTi I wouldn't count the new Si out completely, HOWEVER they are the ugliest creation yet for a Civic hence my TDi...sad sad Honda...my Si was the last to be called a true Si

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Old 05-18-2011, 11:03 AM   #59
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Doesn't help though that Honda worldwide now has start to move away from enthusiasts in general....
They're getting there. Trust me
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:19 AM   #60
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hey grambles...do you have any input on the truth of this?

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rumors and reports on the new generation were coming out saying the exhaust manifold is cast into the head of the car. Meaning that headers/turbo manifolds are going to require a new head before they can be replaced which is a huge restriction on them.
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:26 AM   #61
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hey grambles...do you have any input on the truth of this?
From a development side. No I cannot comment.

From my own personal researching on various forums, theres no TRUE answer yet, but I think the concensus was that it IS a casted exhaust manifold, but I wouldnt believe you need a new head for this.

I havent actually seen the motor, but I know with some of the other engines that have casted manifolds, people have actually found it better because they do not have to spend a lot of money on these elaborate coiled manifolds. Just a quick adapter to attach the turbo to the manifold.
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:42 AM   #62
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thanks for the answer...not that im truly concerned about the future of tuning a civic, since i will never own one, i just like to know my cars haha...it would be an issue for the guys that want to keep it NA and make power so they can feel superior haha
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Old 05-18-2011, 12:00 PM   #63
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since honda messed up on the civic si here is what they are trying to do to make up for it...

http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/mug...2011?imageNo=0
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Old 05-18-2011, 12:12 PM   #64
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since honda messed up on the civic si here is what they are trying to do to make up for it...

http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/mug...2011?imageNo=0

Honda didnt "mess" up on the civic SI. They just gave what everyone wanted, the K24 engine and more torque. Its what everyone was asking for at the time of development. and sure enough they delievered and it wasnt good enough for consumers.

Whenever you percieve market data, its hard to determine what the customer will want 5 years down the road. a 2012 model began development back in 07 or 08. You cant change design so late when most of the tooling is already made for the car. That would be stupid and financially retarded. I can tell you right now we've been working on cars for 2015 for the last year and a half.

This is WHY consumers are so upset at reveal times. Their expectations grow as the market changes.
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Old 05-18-2011, 12:35 PM   #65
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Honda didnt "mess" up on the civic SI. They just gave what everyone wanted, the K24 engine and more torque. Its what everyone was asking for at the time of development. and sure enough they delievered and it wasnt good enough for consumers.

Whenever you percieve market data, its hard to determine what the customer will want 5 years down the road. a 2012 model began development back in 07 or 08. You cant change design so late when most of the tooling is already made for the car. That would be stupid and financially retarded. I can tell you right now we've been working on cars for 2015 for the last year and a half.

This is WHY consumers are so upset at reveal times. Their expectations grow as the market changes.
in for secret cellphone pics of the 2015's...
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Old 05-18-2011, 12:37 PM   #66
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in for secret cellphone pics of the 2015's...
Lulz,

They confiscate at the door and pat us down. Honda takes this mess seriously. Only concept builds at this point, nothing really mass production related
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Old 05-18-2011, 02:10 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by grambles423 View Post
Honda didnt "mess" up on the civic SI. They just gave what everyone wanted, the K24 engine and more torque. Its what everyone was asking for at the time of development. and sure enough they delievered and it wasnt good enough for consumers.

Whenever you percieve market data, its hard to determine what the customer will want 5 years down the road. a 2012 model began development back in 07 or 08. You cant change design so late when most of the tooling is already made for the car. That would be stupid and financially retarded. I can tell you right now we've been working on cars for 2015 for the last year and a half.

This is WHY consumers are so upset at reveal times. Their expectations grow as the market changes.
I've been a big Honda fan for years since the seen blew up in the early 90's. Great cars, really reliable, but when we grow older and want something with more substance... Honda doesn't have anything in their line up to keep the customer coming back.

On Vtec.net I've noticed that a lot of the threads went from lots of enthusiast supporting everything Honda related to very few enthusiast.

My theory is that when enthusiast such as myself where young and into honda's, molding them, racing them... Even though that was such a small subset of customers... It was those same people that told their friends, family, and neighbors to buy a Honda cause they where such great cars.

But when those same young enthusiast grow up, make more money, and want something more... There is nothing that will keep these enthusiast coming back. After my slammed Accord... I went to a BMW E46 cause Honda didn't have any rwd platform sport sedan... They had the S2K... But it didn't fit my needs. The BMW drove so nice and punched way above it's specs on the race track when I would go... I was trying to hold on hoping that Honda/ Acura would dump the turbo 4 from the RDX with sh/ awd into the tsx cause that would have been a very fun combination... But that didn't happen...

Point is, if HOnda/ Acura doesn't have any enthusiast cars that their customer base can grow into... They will loose more enthusiast and the passive marketing that made Honda so popular in the past.

I've noticed with the VW forums... People go from VW to VW to Audi to VW to Porsche and some lucky ones Bentley.... But they are for the most part staying within the company... A they mature and make more money.

Honda/ Acura owners seem to be going from Honda/ Acura to BMW/ Mercedes/ Audi... So that customer base is going to get smaller and smaller.

True Honda is making profits... But it's not gonna last long... When it is turning into a Japanese Buick or Pontiac
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Old 05-18-2011, 03:05 PM   #68
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I've been a big Honda fan for years since the seen blew up in the early 90's. Great cars, really reliable, but when we grow older and want something with more substance... Honda doesn't have anything in their line up to keep the customer coming back.
...
But when those same young enthusiast grow up, make more money, and want something more...

Point is, if HOnda/ Acura doesn't have any enthusiast cars that their customer base can grow into... They will loose more enthusiast and the passive marketing that made Honda so popular in the past.
...
As one of Honda's biggest fans in the past, I agree whole-heartedly with your theme. That is spot-on.

And I mean no disrespect for Grambles, because I know what it's like to watch a beautiful and innovative idea die at the hand of some idiot with a golden parachute, but the whole product line is so incredibly derivative, it breaks my heart.

I mean, I'm now driving, and loving, a VW, for Christ's sake. When was the last time you met a die-hard Chevy fan who jumped ship into a Ford, or vice-versa?

Make no mistake: the principle reason I'm in my machine is because Honda doesn't make Hondas anymore. Helps that the GTI is an incredible and perfect car, but I gotta be honest.

Point taken regarding the 'enthusiast' track. 15 years ago, Honda had the Integra. Back then, a kid could suffer with a 2nd-hand Civic DX stripper sans power steering, drive it through college. When they graduated and got a 'real' job, take their second paycheck to the dealership and put a down payment on an Integra.

Bam, they've made it.

There were even higher-end Acuras they could grow into; or if they wanted to grow a family, there were Honda cars that they could grow into.

Where is the Integra carrot now? The Crosstour? The H-folks have taken their base cars and swelled them, instead. I know the new Civic has shrunk a tad, but every generation prior to it had ballooned uncontrollably.

Park a Gen-1 Civic next to a '70s vintage Cadillac Coupe. Then park a Gen-8 Civic next to a Cadillac CTS. See a difference in the difference?

Innovation and growth is fine and all, but keep your work-horse products stable in the eyes of the consumer. If folks want to trade in their 10-year old Civic, and now have a new family and want/need something bigger, you don't make the Civic an Accord, show them a new Accord.

Compare the trim in the new Civic; while controversial in some eyes, it is still quite respectable. If a consumer wants to trade in their 10-year old Civic hatch, and wants to keep it small, you gotta ask, does the Fit interior work for people who work for a living? Why can't the soft plastics and decent interior be applied to a Fit?

A disproportionate number in my circle all drove Civics 10 years ago; almost all of them wanted a small Honda when their workhorse finally died. Most test-drove a Fit. Of the 10 people I knew who had Civics/Integras in the late nineties, now: two drive Mazda 3s, three (including myself and the guy who intro-ed me) drive GTIs, one drives a Mini, one an Audi, one a Lexus, and two drive Matrices. Small sample size, but notice anything missing?

The only person in my life who now drives a Civic is my mom, and that's because she wanted an Accord 5 years ago and realized the Accord was a freakin' Civic now.

And then there is the Japanese styling cues. People who drive menacingly-aggressive FWD cars just look like dicks. Full stop. I shouldn't start down that path...
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Old 05-18-2011, 05:35 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Cackalacka View Post
As one of Honda's biggest fans in the past, I agree whole-heartedly with your theme. That is spot-on.

And I mean no disrespect for Grambles, because I know what it's like to watch a beautiful and innovative idea die at the hand of some idiot with a golden parachute, but the whole product line is so incredibly derivative, it breaks my heart.

I mean, I'm now driving, and loving, a VW, for Christ's sake. When was the last time you met a die-hard Chevy fan who jumped ship into a Ford, or vice-versa?

Make no mistake: the principle reason I'm in my machine is because Honda doesn't make Hondas anymore. Helps that the GTI is an incredible and perfect car, but I gotta be honest.

Point taken regarding the 'enthusiast' track. 15 years ago, Honda had the Integra. Back then, a kid could suffer with a 2nd-hand Civic DX stripper sans power steering, drive it through college. When they graduated and got a 'real' job, take their second paycheck to the dealership and put a down payment on an Integra.

Bam, they've made it.

There were even higher-end Acuras they could grow into; or if they wanted to grow a family, there were Honda cars that they could grow into.

Where is the Integra carrot now? The Crosstour? The H-folks have taken their base cars and swelled them, instead. I know the new Civic has shrunk a tad, but every generation prior to it had ballooned uncontrollably.

Park a Gen-1 Civic next to a '70s vintage Cadillac Coupe. Then park a Gen-8 Civic next to a Cadillac CTS. See a difference in the difference?

Innovation and growth is fine and all, but keep your work-horse products stable in the eyes of the consumer. If folks want to trade in their 10-year old Civic, and now have a new family and want/need something bigger, you don't make the Civic an Accord, show them a new Accord.

Compare the trim in the new Civic; while controversial in some eyes, it is still quite respectable. If a consumer wants to trade in their 10-year old Civic hatch, and wants to keep it small, you gotta ask, does the Fit interior work for people who work for a living? Why can't the soft plastics and decent interior be applied to a Fit?

A disproportionate number in my circle all drove Civics 10 years ago; almost all of them wanted a small Honda when their workhorse finally died. Most test-drove a Fit. Of the 10 people I knew who had Civics/Integras in the late nineties, now: two drive Mazda 3s, three (including myself and the guy who intro-ed me) drive GTIs, one drives a Mini, one an Audi, one a Lexus, and two drive Matrices. Small sample size, but notice anything missing?

The only person in my life who now drives a Civic is my mom, and that's because she wanted an Accord 5 years ago and realized the Accord was a freakin' Civic now.

And then there is the Japanese styling cues. People who drive menacingly-aggressive FWD cars just look like dicks. Full stop. I shouldn't start down that path...
Interesting insight....cept aggressive FWD drivers....my GTI is FWD!!!!
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Old 05-18-2011, 10:37 PM   #70
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I grew up driving japanese/korean cars and at the time there were more fun than most and very reliable. After a while, they all started to look, feel, and drive the same. (excluding my 02 WRX). My last 3 cars were Saab, BMW, and GTI and I can say I've come to appreciate the European spin on cars. The downside - they cost more to maintain and repair.
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