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Old 10-06-2010, 05:48 PM   #15
chapusin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harddrivin1le View Post
Or I can chip it and ruin the engine. I think I'll skip the chip.

See I don't care about this because I bought the GTI for what it is.

I'd have bought something else is I wanted something faster.
Then explain to me again the whole point of this thread?
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Old 10-06-2010, 05:50 PM   #16
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Trade in after warranty expires!
My 07 FSI used to boost up to 25 Psi in a good run (normally 22) blew up at 69K miles.
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Old 10-06-2010, 05:56 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Dubtastic View Post
I am sure there is a thresold rating on all internal parts, APR is probably pushing well within the threshold. I would assume the only weakness of a pressurized engine would be the check valves and easily replaceble parts. I am sure APR is not pushing the limits of the engine.
Your "sure," yet VW/Audi engineers clearly feel otherwise.

So who's right - you or them?

Here, give post 1 a read:

http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showpo...29&postcount=1

APR tunes DRAMATICALLY increase engine torque (via increased boost levels), which results in equally dramatic increases in internal engine loads (e.g. pistons, rods, rings, wrist pins, bearings, main bearing caps, crank and block). Higher boost also increase loading on the cylinder head.

That's why VW engineers specify stronger versions of ALL those parts for all 2.0 T engines that are rated at 227 HP or higher from the factory.

Yet, you think 254 HP - 361 HP (APR Stage 1 - 3) is fine for the base GTI engine?

Do you think VW/Audi go to all that extra effort and expense for nothing?

Last edited by harddrivin1le; 10-06-2010 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:02 PM   #18
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surprise surprise, modding a car decreases its potential useful life! Thanks Sherlock!
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:07 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by cnimativ View Post
surprise surprise, modding a car decreases its potential useful life! Thanks Sherlock!
Not always.

Some engines are substantially "over-built" in order to successfully cope with much higher power levels with very little sacrifice in longevity. For example, an LS1 V8 fitted with a mild cam/pushrod/vlave spring swap, an ECU flash and a set of headers with a cat-back exhaust can pump out more than 430 SAE Net HP (500 + Gross HP) at the crank for a couple of hundred thousand miles with nothing other than routine oil and filter changes.

But it's quite clear that the MK6's EA888 engine is not an "over-built" engine.

The best way to go fast in a GTI is to start with a 227 HP+ Audi EA113 engine, which is FACTORY DESIGNED AND BUILT to handle higher power levels (likely up to 300 HP or so).

Given the time, expense and hassles associated with that, it would make more sense to simply buy a faster stock car (e.g. BMW 335i).

Last edited by harddrivin1le; 10-06-2010 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:09 PM   #20
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weirdest thread ever, man....
 
Old 10-06-2010, 06:13 PM   #21
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I'm almost positive that our 2.0T TSI does not put out 227 HP, it true power output is around 211-212. The APR Stage 1 flash claims that the new power output is 254 HP, but thats the ideal power output. In reality, it won't reach that. Of course if you change the engine, then its life time will be decreased because Audi/VW spent hours and hours perfecting the 2.0 turbocharged four-banger, but whatever. A stage 1 flash won't kill our engines as much as the stage 3
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:16 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by plac View Post
weirdest thread ever, man....
It's only as "weird" as the VW/Audi engine design group's decisions.

All I'm doing is pointing them out.

It's quite clear that VW/Audi engineer aren't specifying EA888 engines for their high performance (227 HP +) applications.
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:20 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by citrin1893 View Post
I'm almost positive that our 2.0T TSI does not put out 227 HP, it true power output is around 211-212. The APR Stage 1 flash claims that the new power output is 254 HP, but thats the ideal power output. In reality, it won't reach that. Of course if you change the engine, then its life time will be decreased because Audi/VW spent hours and hours perfecting the 2.0 turbocharged four-banger, but whatever. A stage 1 flash won't kill our engines as much as the stage 3
It's torque that destroys bearings, rods, pistons, main bearing caps, etc and even the APR stage 1 tune DRAMATICALLY increases that (to 297 FT-LB).

HP = Torque * RPM/5252

APR is getting virtually all of it's additional power through increased torque.

So while the Stage 1 flash most certainly will not "kill our engines" as much as a Stage 3, the Stage 1 flash will still significantly reduce engine life and durability, relative to a stock GTI's engine.

The high performance (227 HP+) EA113 engine is clearly the way to go for 2.0T engine builds because it's designed and manufactured by VW/Audi to handle higher output levels.
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:20 PM   #24
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weird in the fact that this is an enthusiast forum, and 95% of everyone here already knew all this. Its not rocket science that modding weakens something in the long run..
 
Old 10-06-2010, 06:21 PM   #25
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Arin/APR knows the exact limits of allowable horsepower on these engines from their racing teams, so hopefully he will provide some real world facts.
 
Old 10-06-2010, 06:26 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by plac View Post
weird in the fact that this is an enthusiast forum, and 95% of everyone here already knew all this. Its not rocket science that modding weakens something in the long run..
I don't think people are aware of the consequences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plac View Post
Arin/APR knows the exact limits of allowable horsepower on these engines from their racing teams, so hopefully he will provide some real world facts.
And he got a TTS now to replace his Mk5 GTI. Either we made him that rich or his MK5 got problems, or something else.
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:31 PM   #27
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We've put over 400 FT-LBS of torque to the wheels on the stock rods and they held up. Not saying you can do that for long but they are not snapping.

The TSI has strong rods than the FSI. The TSI has seen APR stage 3 power levels from customers since 2006 with no reports of factory rod failures on 93 octane fuel that I'm aware of. We even have customers with our 400 WHP 100 octane race files on the stock rods w/o issues. We do not feel our race file is safe for stock rods but it's good to see those going against what we have said have not had issues.

We've tested the TSI and FSI in real world racing conditions with more power than any fully bolted on FSI or TSI with factory turbo and have not seen failures.

Bottom line, the factory Rods are capable of stage 3 power for years and years and years of usage w/o issues. Stage 1 or 2 is not going to even touch those power levels or even scrape the surface of being dangerous for your motors internals.


Quote:
Originally Posted by harddrivin1le View Post
Anyone who does a Stage 2 or 3 level mod and drives the car hard will likely be looking at some very real (and very expensive) problems by the 50,000 mile mark.
LOL!

We've flashed our software on ECU's over 100,000 times from 1.8T's to 2.0TSI... You think you'd hear about rods blowing all the time if it was an issue.
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:37 PM   #28
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Trade in after warranty expires!
My 07 FSI used to boost up to 25 Psi in a good run (normally 22) blew up at 69K miles.
I, for one, appreciate the details provided by the OP. And my ethics tell me that IF INDEED the longevity and reliability of the car were really affected negatively even by an APR stage 1 mod, I don't think I'd do it. Doing it AND knowing that I'd be selling a car to someone else with reliability / longevity / safety potential issues would bother me.. I know I'm old fashioned that way and I know that other people wouldn't hesitate selling me a compromised car. Which is why I'm on my fourth new car in 22 years of driving.
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