phd-12v
Go Kart Champion
where is the LIKE button around here?? :thumbup:
6
UBER-STEALTH Under Floor Sub Install
- Thread starter veedoubleme
- Start date
where is the LIKE button around here?? :thumbup:
phd-12v
Go Kart Champion
hey ill be in minn next thursday and friday, ill PM you my location if your close, id like to hear your car if you dont mind.
I am flying in so i wont have mine with me. If you need vag com ill have it with me too. Just so you know.
veedoubleme
Go Kart Champion
EDIT: Sub box arrives Tuesday.
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veedoubleme
Go Kart Champion
Next Thursday I have a benefit dinner right after work. Are you only here for that day?
I have VAG-COM (see link in my sig), but I really appreciate the offer! :thumbsup:
veedoubleme
Go Kart Champion
The LC2i fixes your bass
Time to get a little scientific with measurements, explain exactly what the Audio Control LC2i does, and how you set one up. AC has really bad explanations of what it does and how exactly you tune it. I mean, they do explain how to tune it correctly, but I don't think that insures good or correct settings.
The measurements used to create the graph below were taken with an SPL meter by playing a 50 Hz 0dB sine wave tone, and a 200 Hz 0db sine wave tone. The input is from an iPod using the MDI interface with the input volume set to minimum. I placed the meter at the approximate listening location (by my head) and moved the volume knob one click up each time, then took a reading, and so on.
The way I decided to show the data is by comparing the increase in loudness. Your ear will perceive a 10 dB change as 2x as loud. So taking the numbers I had collected, I graphed out the change in loudness from the previous volume setting using this formula:
First, lets talk about what our VW OEM head units do to bass. The red line in the graph below is uncorrected, meaning this is before I installed the LC2i. It's just speaker level inputs going directly into the sub amp, which is how almost everybody adds a sub to this car (or with line out converters if the amp doesn't have speaker level in). I had set the sub amp input gain correctly as per JL Audio's insturctions (24.5v AC going to the sub at 3/4 volume for a 2Ω load).
As you can see from the red line, the volume doesn't just go up perfectly linear, and there are some dips and what not down at low and mid volumes, but the real drop off in bass is when you change from 14 to 15 on your volume knob. From then on out, the OEM head unit barely adds any bass. From 14-20 the OEM head unit increased the dB on bass coming from my sub from 116 dB to just 118 dB. Thus, the OEM head unit only made my sub just 20% louder. Over the same range, it increased a 200 Hz tone by 9 dB, which is 90% louder (graphed as the green line). So that's a pretty big difference when your mids get 90% louder but your sub only gets 20% louder.
Now lets look at the blue line. That is with the LC2i set up. I'll explain how to configure the LC2i after the the graph. Let's just look at what it did. With the LC2i configured, the sub now increases in loudness from 108 db to 121 dB over the same range from 14-20 on the volume knob. That's a change from 20% louder to 130% louder.
Looking at the graph you can see, especially at higher volumes, the sub now very closely matches the rest of the speakers for loudness increase. The design of the LC2i doesn't allow it to fix the dips around volume 7 or volume 11, but to be honest, those are not nearly as noticeable to your ear.
The LC2i is really an impressive little box. It just blends the sub right in. It looks much better on the graph, and to the ear the difference is night and day. The bass blends naturally right from low volume all the way up to the top. I also gained 4db out of my sub at volume 20 (40% louder bass), and it hits harder and smoother. The LC2i does an amazingly good job of blending in your sub with your OEM head unit for only $80. It's a steal!
Here is what I did to set the LC2i up correctly. First I had understand the controls. After fiddling around, it was clear Threshold is used to set the volume level on the head unit where the AccuBass correction curve on the LC2i kicks in. The AccuBass correction does not touch the signal below the threshold. It's a pretty smooth "kick-in" since it's slightly delayed and fades in, but you can tell. The way I set this was simple. I started playing the 50 Hz tone again, and then set the volume knob to 14, where I wanted it to kick in. I had the AccuBass setting (cover that in a sec) set to the middle. Then I turned on my SPL meter and turned up the Threshold setting VERY slowly until I saw my SPL meter jump a few dB. That's where the AccuBass will now kick in. That basically means that when I get to volume 14, it will begin boosting bass to correct for the OEM bass defeat. Here is the meter visibly moving when I hit the Threshold at volume 14:
The Accubass setting is how strong of a curve or correction to you want to apply to the bass above the threshold to send to the subwoofer. Rather than trust my ear, I set the volume at 14 and adjusted the AccuBass setting until my meter read what I wanted it to at 14. Then I verified that it mapped all the way to 20 correctly, and it does, as you can see from the graph above. I also checked the input gain on the JL Audio amp to make sure it was driving the sub around 24.5v AC at 3/4 volume, which it was. This ended up with AccuBass being turned down from the default middle setting.
So now this baby is dialed in, it sounds great, and I really feel like I'm getting the most out of it. Damn it sounds good! If any real audio geeks see a flaw in my choice of measurement numbers or how I compared or set anything up, please let me know. I'm not a real audio geek... just a geek who knows how to measure things and think his way through stuff.
Let me just say that if you are running just speaker level line in to your sub amp, or you are just using normal line out converters, you are really missing out on some potential to have cleaner, harder hitting bass that blends into your OEM system better.
Nik's box is scheduled for delivery on the 24th. I can't wait to get my hatch space back! This F150 box is lame.
Time to get a little scientific with measurements, explain exactly what the Audio Control LC2i does, and how you set one up. AC has really bad explanations of what it does and how exactly you tune it. I mean, they do explain how to tune it correctly, but I don't think that insures good or correct settings.
The measurements used to create the graph below were taken with an SPL meter by playing a 50 Hz 0dB sine wave tone, and a 200 Hz 0db sine wave tone. The input is from an iPod using the MDI interface with the input volume set to minimum. I placed the meter at the approximate listening location (by my head) and moved the volume knob one click up each time, then took a reading, and so on.
The way I decided to show the data is by comparing the increase in loudness. Your ear will perceive a 10 dB change as 2x as loud. So taking the numbers I had collected, I graphed out the change in loudness from the previous volume setting using this formula:
(current dB - previous dB) / 10
What this allowed me to do is see exactly where the OEM head unit starts cutting bass to the speakers, and it allowed me to accurately tune the LC2i.First, lets talk about what our VW OEM head units do to bass. The red line in the graph below is uncorrected, meaning this is before I installed the LC2i. It's just speaker level inputs going directly into the sub amp, which is how almost everybody adds a sub to this car (or with line out converters if the amp doesn't have speaker level in). I had set the sub amp input gain correctly as per JL Audio's insturctions (24.5v AC going to the sub at 3/4 volume for a 2Ω load).
As you can see from the red line, the volume doesn't just go up perfectly linear, and there are some dips and what not down at low and mid volumes, but the real drop off in bass is when you change from 14 to 15 on your volume knob. From then on out, the OEM head unit barely adds any bass. From 14-20 the OEM head unit increased the dB on bass coming from my sub from 116 dB to just 118 dB. Thus, the OEM head unit only made my sub just 20% louder. Over the same range, it increased a 200 Hz tone by 9 dB, which is 90% louder (graphed as the green line). So that's a pretty big difference when your mids get 90% louder but your sub only gets 20% louder.
Now lets look at the blue line. That is with the LC2i set up. I'll explain how to configure the LC2i after the the graph. Let's just look at what it did. With the LC2i configured, the sub now increases in loudness from 108 db to 121 dB over the same range from 14-20 on the volume knob. That's a change from 20% louder to 130% louder.
Looking at the graph you can see, especially at higher volumes, the sub now very closely matches the rest of the speakers for loudness increase. The design of the LC2i doesn't allow it to fix the dips around volume 7 or volume 11, but to be honest, those are not nearly as noticeable to your ear.
The LC2i is really an impressive little box. It just blends the sub right in. It looks much better on the graph, and to the ear the difference is night and day. The bass blends naturally right from low volume all the way up to the top. I also gained 4db out of my sub at volume 20 (40% louder bass), and it hits harder and smoother. The LC2i does an amazingly good job of blending in your sub with your OEM head unit for only $80. It's a steal!
Here is what I did to set the LC2i up correctly. First I had understand the controls. After fiddling around, it was clear Threshold is used to set the volume level on the head unit where the AccuBass correction curve on the LC2i kicks in. The AccuBass correction does not touch the signal below the threshold. It's a pretty smooth "kick-in" since it's slightly delayed and fades in, but you can tell. The way I set this was simple. I started playing the 50 Hz tone again, and then set the volume knob to 14, where I wanted it to kick in. I had the AccuBass setting (cover that in a sec) set to the middle. Then I turned on my SPL meter and turned up the Threshold setting VERY slowly until I saw my SPL meter jump a few dB. That's where the AccuBass will now kick in. That basically means that when I get to volume 14, it will begin boosting bass to correct for the OEM bass defeat. Here is the meter visibly moving when I hit the Threshold at volume 14:
The Accubass setting is how strong of a curve or correction to you want to apply to the bass above the threshold to send to the subwoofer. Rather than trust my ear, I set the volume at 14 and adjusted the AccuBass setting until my meter read what I wanted it to at 14. Then I verified that it mapped all the way to 20 correctly, and it does, as you can see from the graph above. I also checked the input gain on the JL Audio amp to make sure it was driving the sub around 24.5v AC at 3/4 volume, which it was. This ended up with AccuBass being turned down from the default middle setting.
So now this baby is dialed in, it sounds great, and I really feel like I'm getting the most out of it. Damn it sounds good! If any real audio geeks see a flaw in my choice of measurement numbers or how I compared or set anything up, please let me know. I'm not a real audio geek... just a geek who knows how to measure things and think his way through stuff.
Let me just say that if you are running just speaker level line in to your sub amp, or you are just using normal line out converters, you are really missing out on some potential to have cleaner, harder hitting bass that blends into your OEM system better.
Nik's box is scheduled for delivery on the 24th. I can't wait to get my hatch space back! This F150 box is lame.
Last edited:
P
plac
Guest
never knew you had that in you.. i'm impressed.
Time to get a little scientific with measurements, explain exactly what the Audio Control LC2i does, and how you set one up. AC has really bad explanations of what it does and how exactly you tune it. I mean, they do explain how to tune it correctly, but I don't think that insures good or correct settings.
The measurements used to create the graph below were taken with an SPL meter by playing a 50 Hz 0dB sine wave tone, and a 200 Hz 0db sine wave tone. The input is from an iPod using the MDI interface with the input volume set to minimum. I placed the meter at the approximate listening location (by my head) and moved the volume knob one click up each time, then took a reading, and so on.
The way I decided to show the data is by comparing the increase in loudness. Your ear will perceive a 10 dB change as 2x as loud. So taking the numbers I had collected, I graphed out the change in loudness from the previous volume setting using this formula:
(current dB - previous dB) / 10What this allowed me to do is see exactly where the OEM head unit starts cutting bass to the speakers, and it allowed me to accurately tune the LC2i.
First, lets talk about what our VW OEM head units do to bass. The red line in the graph below is uncorrected, meaning this is before I installed the LC2i. It's just speaker level inputs going directly into the sub amp, which is how almost everybody adds a sub to this car (or with line out converters if the amp doesn't have speaker level in). I had set the sub amp input gain correctly as per JL Audio's insturctions (24.5v AC going to the sub at 3/4 volume for a 2Ω load).
As you can see from the red line, the volume doesn't just go up perfectly linear, and there are some dips and what not down at low and mid volumes, but the real drop off in bass is when you change from 14 to 15 on your volume knob. From then on out, the OEM head unit barely adds any bass. From 14-20 the OEM head unit increased the dB on bass coming from my sub from 116 dB to just 118 dB. Thus, the OEM head unit only made my sub just 20% louder. Over the same range, it increased a 200 Hz tone by 9 dB, which is 90% louder (graphed as the green line). So that's a pretty big difference when your mids get 90% louder but your sub only gets 20% louder.
Now lets look at the blue line. That is with the LC2i set up. I'll explain how to configure the LC2i after the the graph. Let's just look at what it did. With the LC2i configured, the sub now increases in loudness from 108 db to 121 dB over the same range from 14-20 on the volume knob. That's a change from 20% louder to 130% louder.
Looking at the graph you can see, especially at higher volumes, the sub now very closely matches the rest of the speakers for loudness increase. The design of the LC2i doesn't allow it to fix the dips around volume 7 or volume 11, but to be honest, those are not nearly as noticeable to your ear.
The LC2i is really an impressive little box. It just blends the sub right in. It looks much better on the graph, and to the ear the difference is night and day. The bass blends naturally right from low volume all the way up to the top. I also gained 4db out of my sub at volume 20 (40% louder bass), and it hits harder and smoother. The LC2i does an amazingly good job of blending in your sub with your OEM head unit for only $80. It's a steal!
Here is what I did to set the LC2i up correctly. First I had understand the controls. After fiddling around, it was clear Threshold is used to set the volume level on the head unit where the AccuBass correction curve on the LC2i kicks in. It's a pretty smooth "kick-in" since it's slightly delayed and fades in, but you can tell. The way I set this was simple. I started playing the 50 Hz tone again, and then set the volume knob to 14, where I wanted it to kick in. I had the AccuBass setting (cover that in a sec) set to the middle. Then I turned on my SPL meter and turned up the Threshold setting VERY slowly until I saw my SPL meter jump a few dB. That's where the AccuBass will now kick in. That basically means that when I get to volume 14, it will begin boosting bass to correct for the OEM bass defeat. Here is the meter visibly moving when I hit the Threshold at volume 14:
The Accubass setting is how strong of a curve or correction to you want to apply to the bass to send to the subwoofer. Rather than trust my ear, I set the volume at 14 and adjusted the AccuBass setting until my meter read what I wanted it to at 14. Then I verified that it mapped all the way to 20 correctly, and it does, as you can see from the graph above. I also checked the input gain on the JL Audio amp to make sure it was driving the sub around 24.5v AC at 3/4 volume, which it was. This ended up with AccuBass being turned down from the default middle setting.
So now this baby is dialed in, it sounds great, and I really feel like I'm getting the most out of it. Damn it sounds good!
Let me just say that if you are running just speaker level line in to your sub amp, or you are just using normal line out converters, you are really missing out on some potential to have cleaner, harder hitting bass that blends into your OEM system better.
Nik's box is scheduled for delivery on the 24th. I can't wait to get my hatch space back! This F150 box is lame.
veedoubleme
Go Kart Champion
Thanks! I like getting nerdy.
Now that everything is pretty much dialed in the way I want it, I cleaned up all the wiring. This is the "final" product of the amp rack and wiring area. I'm not making it any fancier than this since it's just for me and not for show.
The little knob to the left of the LC2i is the base of a RAM mount swing arm. The arm has a nice big flat base that attaches to it, and when I angle it right and tighten it down, it supports the hatch floor over whole the area. Works great, I already had it sitting around, and it's not permanent (I can move it easily if I have to change a setting or get at the wiring).
I'm a noob too and I just ordered (and received) a box from Nik, so I'm about to embark next weekend. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Just today I took out some random plastic piece while looking for a ground bolt. Also, it took me the longest time to realize the foam comes out like puzzle pieces.
Anyway, you get a little sweaty but I don't expect it to be too difficult. I'm pretty sure I won't have to take the seats out like he did just to hide the wires.
Good job with the LC2i btw. I might have to get one if I notice the same problem.
veedoubleme
Go Kart Champion
I guess it depends on how much of a do-it-yourselfer you are. It's really not that hard. If you are comfortable popping off some trim panels and doing some relatively basic wiring, it's not too bad. It only took me a couple of hours to do the initial wiring job. Cutting the foam and making the amp rack require only the most basic of carpentry skills (do you have a jig saw?). As a whole, it might look intimidating, but step by step it's not scary.
The final tuning I did with the meter and what not isn't necessary, since now we know where the OEM head unit cuts bass. If you are doing an LC2i (which I would highly recommend), just turn your volume knob to 14, play a 50 Hz 0db test tone, and slowly turn up the threshold until you hear the sub kick up in volume. Then set AccuBass to about 25%, and you'll be 95% of the way there.
Thanks! The bass defeat will be there, it's just a matter of how much it bugs you. If you install a remote sub level knob, you can at least adjust for it manually, but it drove me nuts turning up my sub when I turned up the volume, and then turning down my sub when I turned down the volume, and then never quite getting it right. Now it's just smooth and blends in like it should.
bshappy
Ready to race!
Please do. Ive been subbing every sub install thread trying to piece together enough information to get to confidence to tackle this project.
If youre up to it take lots of pics and do a DIY!
bshappy
Ready to race!
So with the LC2i is the sub adjustment knob no longer necessary?
Im somewhat mechanically inclined but Ive never done wiring before. Running the wires and removing trim isnt what im worried about. Its wiring the amp and head unit that Im afraid of.
veedoubleme
Go Kart Champion
I would still run one. I have quite varied music taste, and some songs sound just bad with a sub or are mixed with too much bass. It's easy to install as long as you are pulling wires anyway. I'd rather have it, even if I'm going to use it way less than I was.
Yes but run it from where :iono:
Yours looks really good, but it's not a good option for me. For starters I'm trying to do this whole thing without drilling (especially since I don't have a drill), and the remote that came with my amp is larger. I was thinking of sticking it in the glovebox, but if I do then I'll probably have to pull up the trim on the passenger side as well unless I can think of a way to get the power cable to the passenger side or visa versa. I might have been able to stick it in the non-ashtray, but it didn't look like it had a hole or anything for the wire to pass through (again no drilling).