Storch
Go Kart Champion
why bother when the thread will get locked 5 min later? :iono:
6
Who has switched tunes between APR and Unitronic - and why?
- Thread starter sixthvw
- Start date
why bother when the thread will get locked 5 min later? :iono:
PatrickGTIVI
Ready to race!
Because I want him to state it explicitly before I tell him why he's talking out the back door?
Storch
Go Kart Champion
im all for that aside from another thread with good info getting locked because of the fan boy shit that goes on inside
Bender1
Banned
I am happy to keep it in a position that will prevent it from being locked but it will be moderated extremely strictly. Would need you guys all to understand that before we went down that road.
Storch
Go Kart Champion
:thumbsup:
My original intention here was to hear from those who have switched tunes - any tuner (APR, Revo, Uni) to another (Uni, Revo, APR) and the reasons for their switch, and what they experienced after the switch. I have to believe that all these reputable companies are offering products that when used as intended, won't grenade a motor somehow. The thought of a tune that advanced timing a bit more - but safely vs. higher boost is appealing to me because of the way I drive. In a perfect world, I probably would enjoy APR K04 setup because I like my stage II vs. stage I but I would 'sacrifice' some low end grunt for a motor that pulled right up to redline. However, K04 is probably not in the budget - hence my question.
Bender1
Banned
grambles423
Automotive Engineer
1) We normally don't let these threads fly because of the impending doom that awaits them. But.....strangely enough we're allowing it to be discussed as long as it can stay civil.
2) Timing vs. boost. Each has their own pitfalls. Higher advance = Knock issues. Higher Boost equals internal pressure issues. Its all about managing them correctly.
2) Timing vs. boost. Each has their own pitfalls. Higher advance = Knock issues. Higher Boost equals internal pressure issues. Its all about managing them correctly.
FlyByGti1
Go Kart Champion
Let me start by saying I'm glad to see this thread is still alive and providing a lot of valuable information rather than XX company is better just because.
That being said, I'm still kinda new to the understanding of boosted cars and understanding logs (first car where I've had to worry about it), but in a practical sense, do you think that the balance has been achieved even though the companies are different (APR higher boost, Uni advanced timing). I know there are some small issues that people have experienced but I wonder if they can all be attributed to the tune itself :iono:
FlyByGti1
Go Kart Champion
Honestly the K04 could be within budget. There's a lot of people selling used kits but from what I've seen they should be built to last if properly maintained.
Noize
Go Kart Champion
I'm going to comment, because I almost went Unitronic at the start, then considered switching to Unitronic later, but did not. Here's my story-
November 2012:
-Had just bought car new, was ready to tune.
-Originally wanted APR due to the ability for map switching, but was told by a local friend that Stage 2 would not pass readiness for his car, and he had to switch to GIAC (his car was 2010 model). Local APR dealer was very poor, and could not answer any questions.
-Went to a local shop in Nashville that was a Unitronic and GIAC dealer, was quoted nearly $200 in labor.
-John at Unitronic was very nice, tried to help me on the tune price by about $50 to offset some of the sticker shock of the installation fee. Unfortunately, the shop did not have the proper tool to bench flash the ECU, which would have required my shipping the ECU to Canada or waiting.
December 2012:
-Found a local shop that was willing to help me out and work with APR. They pulled the ECU, flashed it, and overnighted it to Opelika and back. They only charged me $50 for the installation and the freight was around $80, so still cheaper than what the other shop wanted to charge me for labor for the Unitronic flash, and I got a loaded ECU out of it (APR sale).
-I thanked John at Unitronic for his help via PM, and told him I was going to use APR. He told me that it was a bad choice and I would regret the decision. I thought that was in poor taste.
-Went APR stage 1 at 900 miles, flawless until I decided to go stage 2 last month.
April 2013:
-Bought and installed an SPM 200 cell catted downpipe, ready to go Stage 2
-Still know I have to pass emissions with a visual test and no CEL achieving full OBD2 readiness. Worried because some of the APR tunes disabled the back O2 readiness, and that wouldn't fly for me. But also had to get the car to not code with readiness achieved.
-Contacted APR, and they sent me some information about different states and said they can set up the ECU to have full readiness, or only do it on the stock file.
-Bought $4 O2 spacers (Spark plug anti fouler extensions). I didn't have to drill or anything. I just put them in the back O2 and went. The car coded once because I ran it without these spacers for the first 50 miles. At that point, I thought I was going to have to switch to Unitronic.
-I posted in John's sales thread about my issue, and he said he'd be happy to help, and to send him an email.
-John never replied to my email.
-I cleared my PO420, and stayed stage 1 map with the downpipe, waiting for either an email reply, or if the spacers would allow my CCTA car to not code. I didn't want to buy the O2 spacer that's $50 that rattles, and the 42DD one has been out of stock for months, because they're revising it.
-I drove 650 miles, and the car didn't code.
May 2013:
-Flashed the car to Stage 2 at APR in Opelika, and put an additional 1000 miles on it since then, due to a large family trip. I have the stock map in bank 1 with OBD2 readiness, so I can switch and pass emissions. The 91,93, and race files have the readiness disabled, but I certainly don't need it, as the $4 spacer method worked like a champ.
I posted this information up, because I feel like there is a lot of APR bashing going on, but they have done right by me. In my experience, Unitronic bashed APR, but APR didn't in return, all they did was give my very great customer service. My car was updated to the stage 2 flash for free (given to all customers), and I was allowed to tour the facility, which was awesome!
Both my loaded Stage 1 and loaded Stage 2 tunes have run without issue, and my stock clutch is strong thus far, and has never slipped in 8500 miles.
Thanks for reading. I hope this tuner drama can stop, and it can be seen that Unitronic isn't perfect either. Companies are in competition for the same customer, so we have to expect it to be tense sometimes. While the employees should be moderated and controlled, it seems unfair to ban a paying vendor based on comments in the heat of a debate. I'm also hopeful APR can be allowed back on the forum, as golfmk6 and APR have a symbiotic relationship and really need each other.
November 2012:
-Had just bought car new, was ready to tune.
-Originally wanted APR due to the ability for map switching, but was told by a local friend that Stage 2 would not pass readiness for his car, and he had to switch to GIAC (his car was 2010 model). Local APR dealer was very poor, and could not answer any questions.
-Went to a local shop in Nashville that was a Unitronic and GIAC dealer, was quoted nearly $200 in labor.
-John at Unitronic was very nice, tried to help me on the tune price by about $50 to offset some of the sticker shock of the installation fee. Unfortunately, the shop did not have the proper tool to bench flash the ECU, which would have required my shipping the ECU to Canada or waiting.
December 2012:
-Found a local shop that was willing to help me out and work with APR. They pulled the ECU, flashed it, and overnighted it to Opelika and back. They only charged me $50 for the installation and the freight was around $80, so still cheaper than what the other shop wanted to charge me for labor for the Unitronic flash, and I got a loaded ECU out of it (APR sale).
-I thanked John at Unitronic for his help via PM, and told him I was going to use APR. He told me that it was a bad choice and I would regret the decision. I thought that was in poor taste.
-Went APR stage 1 at 900 miles, flawless until I decided to go stage 2 last month.
April 2013:
-Bought and installed an SPM 200 cell catted downpipe, ready to go Stage 2
-Still know I have to pass emissions with a visual test and no CEL achieving full OBD2 readiness. Worried because some of the APR tunes disabled the back O2 readiness, and that wouldn't fly for me. But also had to get the car to not code with readiness achieved.
-Contacted APR, and they sent me some information about different states and said they can set up the ECU to have full readiness, or only do it on the stock file.
-Bought $4 O2 spacers (Spark plug anti fouler extensions). I didn't have to drill or anything. I just put them in the back O2 and went. The car coded once because I ran it without these spacers for the first 50 miles. At that point, I thought I was going to have to switch to Unitronic.
-I posted in John's sales thread about my issue, and he said he'd be happy to help, and to send him an email.
-John never replied to my email.
-I cleared my PO420, and stayed stage 1 map with the downpipe, waiting for either an email reply, or if the spacers would allow my CCTA car to not code. I didn't want to buy the O2 spacer that's $50 that rattles, and the 42DD one has been out of stock for months, because they're revising it.
-I drove 650 miles, and the car didn't code.
May 2013:
-Flashed the car to Stage 2 at APR in Opelika, and put an additional 1000 miles on it since then, due to a large family trip. I have the stock map in bank 1 with OBD2 readiness, so I can switch and pass emissions. The 91,93, and race files have the readiness disabled, but I certainly don't need it, as the $4 spacer method worked like a champ.
I posted this information up, because I feel like there is a lot of APR bashing going on, but they have done right by me. In my experience, Unitronic bashed APR, but APR didn't in return, all they did was give my very great customer service. My car was updated to the stage 2 flash for free (given to all customers), and I was allowed to tour the facility, which was awesome!
Both my loaded Stage 1 and loaded Stage 2 tunes have run without issue, and my stock clutch is strong thus far, and has never slipped in 8500 miles.
Thanks for reading. I hope this tuner drama can stop, and it can be seen that Unitronic isn't perfect either. Companies are in competition for the same customer, so we have to expect it to be tense sometimes. While the employees should be moderated and controlled, it seems unfair to ban a paying vendor based on comments in the heat of a debate. I'm also hopeful APR can be allowed back on the forum, as golfmk6 and APR have a symbiotic relationship and really need each other.
Coogles
Go Kart Newbie
Anecdotal ramblings from a previous platform -
I come from the world of Grand Prix GTP's, which were significantly limited by the size of the roots-style M90 blowers they come with from the factory. Those little superchargers make tons of heat since they don't actually compress the air internally like a screw type (Whipple / Kenne Bell) supercharger does.
Early on in that platform's life cycle many tuners were slapping on the smallest pulley they could run, ramping up boost pressures and drowning out knock with extra fuel and running stock timing. It works...to a point. You get near the end of that blower's ability to operate efficiently by doing breathing mods to the motor and suddenly it becomes advantageous to lean out the mixture, add timing, and run more moderate boost pressures.
My second GTP, for example, I bought from a friend. It was mildly modded with a small cam and headers plus some basic bolt-ons. When I bought it he was running a 2.9" pulley and making ~14 psi. His personal best was a 13.5 @ 105mph. I dropped back to a 3.2" pulley, which came to ~10psi, leaned out the fuel mixture to 11.5:1, bumped up the timing 3-4 degrees and immediately went out and posted a 13.1 @ 107.5mph without making any other changes.
The turbos on these cars (stock or K04) obviously don't generate the parasitic losses those blowers do, but they're still small turbos I assume operating near the limits of their compressor maps. If you can bring the turbo closer to where it operates efficiently and gain back those cylinder pressures by adding more timing and/or leaning out the A/F ratio, there's probably some power to be had.
Boost or timing; it didn't matter, both would lead to knock correction if taken too far. Boost would pop pistons, timing would pop head gaskets. I have no experience with either tune, but I know which direction I'm leaning when I do decide to go with a Stage 1 flash.
I come from the world of Grand Prix GTP's, which were significantly limited by the size of the roots-style M90 blowers they come with from the factory. Those little superchargers make tons of heat since they don't actually compress the air internally like a screw type (Whipple / Kenne Bell) supercharger does.
Early on in that platform's life cycle many tuners were slapping on the smallest pulley they could run, ramping up boost pressures and drowning out knock with extra fuel and running stock timing. It works...to a point. You get near the end of that blower's ability to operate efficiently by doing breathing mods to the motor and suddenly it becomes advantageous to lean out the mixture, add timing, and run more moderate boost pressures.
My second GTP, for example, I bought from a friend. It was mildly modded with a small cam and headers plus some basic bolt-ons. When I bought it he was running a 2.9" pulley and making ~14 psi. His personal best was a 13.5 @ 105mph. I dropped back to a 3.2" pulley, which came to ~10psi, leaned out the fuel mixture to 11.5:1, bumped up the timing 3-4 degrees and immediately went out and posted a 13.1 @ 107.5mph without making any other changes.
The turbos on these cars (stock or K04) obviously don't generate the parasitic losses those blowers do, but they're still small turbos I assume operating near the limits of their compressor maps. If you can bring the turbo closer to where it operates efficiently and gain back those cylinder pressures by adding more timing and/or leaning out the A/F ratio, there's probably some power to be had.
Boost or timing; it didn't matter, both would lead to knock correction if taken too far. Boost would pop pistons, timing would pop head gaskets. I have no experience with either tune, but I know which direction I'm leaning when I do decide to go with a Stage 1 flash.
Noize
Go Kart Champion
That doesn't correlate here. The knock correction on these ECUs is very aggressive, and damage from these canned tunes on a K03 car is close to impossible if all the factory safety nets are left in place.
FlyByGti1
Go Kart Champion
This was actually the issue I ran into when I had to pass emissions. I had gone stage 2 then k04 within a year and had that same problem. At first it was widespread but APR took note of it and created that stock non-test pipe file specifically so you could pass emissions.
**Disclaimer: I'm not trying to be a fanboy by any means, and am here to learn from people's experience like everyone else. Just want to state the facts that I have learned through time as well.**
For those of you with a more engineering mindset, do you think the advanced timing of Uni is largely due to their lack of program switching?? APR offers program files for specific fuels, do you think that may be something that needs to be considered as well or is that a negligible fact??