Help with WMI setup

[huzidada]

Hey guys.

Running a Golf R DSG. Its a Unitronic Stage 2+ tune with CTS intercooler, throttle pipe, discharge pipe, pulley, Unitronic Intake, Forge actuator, RS4 Valve, Autotech HPFP and a custom 3inch DP Decat.

I currently have a Devils Own Stage 2 Kit in the car. Im having a bit of timing pull issue ( -7 to -9 at highest, -3 to -4 on average) with my 95Ron(91 MON ) tune. After checking plugs etc, I decided to buy some proper 98 RON(93 octane, not available at all and to get is expensive an a PITA), and timing pull completely dissappered(crap fuel quality this side:mad0259:

I was running a very small D03 Nozzle at the bottom of my CTS throttle pipe just for added cooling as it gets very hot here in Swaziland, but now I want to use the WMI for a bit of Octane benefit as well. Not to run a 100Oct tune, just to get rid of timing pull on pump fuel map

I dont have acess to getting a TB spacer and to get one is a bit difficult especially in regard to my current location.

Firstly could/should I upgrade the D03 Nozzle to something bigger(D03 is 189ml/min

Secondly could I go dual nozzle with the throttle pipe. I notice that with the CTS pipe the 2nd bung is in the middle of pipe and a good 7-9inches away from the Throttle body flap as compared to the BSH which is more closer to the TB.

Any opinions/tips etc will greatly be appreciated.

 

[07STitoR]

Why don't you use the Unitronic 91 oct (95 ron?) map pulling -7 to -9 is A LOT of timing.

 

[GIACUser]

2+ requires 93 octane fuel so no surprise you were having timing pulled.

You should be able to run 91 octane + water/meth with zero timing pull. To keep it simple I would use single nozzle mounted in the upper position and just plug the lower one. Start with D04, log timing, if you need more you can go D05, run logs.

I am assuming:
Progressive controller - on about 7psi full about 14psi
50/50 mix of methanol and distilled water
Upper position plus larger nozzle will have more of the unevaporated wm mix getting to the combustion chamber to help you with fueling issue.

Another thing you can change is the mix more alky 70/30 but I don't expect you will need to do this.

Also if you find that the D04 is too little D05 is too much you can always use Snow nozzles with your system and they have in-between sized.

Note: A nozzle in down low where you have it now plus one in a TB plate works fantastic. I have K04, aggressive race type file and I run 225ml down low and 225ml in TB plate in a very hot climate 100+ degrees F with zero timing pull and 91octane fuel in tank (50/50 alky mix)

 

[huzidada]

Thanks for the replies. I am running a Unitronic Stage 2+ 95 Tune but the fuel in my area must be a bit of a bad batch. I was getting minnimum(-2) timing pull before.

I have since upgraded to the CTS intercooler, CTS pulley, CTS discharge pipe, Forge K04 Actuator, RS4 Valve and USP Torque Insert and since then Ive been getting timing pull. Naturally I thought hardware but all types of plugs and gaps etc and nothing worked. Decided to mix some octane booster and chuck it in and my timing pull litrrally dissappered. I still get between -2 and -4 but like just the occasional. Mistly 0s now. Maybe torque insert is giving funny vibrations?.

I was thinking of running a dual nozzle setup as my kit actually came installed with a D01 at the top and a D05 nozzle at the bottom.

I was thinking of running maybe a D04 Nozzle at the top and a D02 nozzle at the bottom.

Or maybe dual D03 nozzles but I know closer to the TB os what gives more octance.

 

[GIACUser]

Thanks for the replies. I am running a Unitronic Stage 2+ 95 Tune but the fuel in my area must be a bit of a bad batch. I was getting minnimum(-2) timing pull before.

I have since upgraded to the CTS intercooler, CTS pulley, CTS discharge pipe, Forge K04 Actuator, RS4 Valve and USP Torque Insert and since then Ive been getting timing pull. Naturally I thought hardware but all types of plugs and gaps etc and nothing worked. Decided to mix some octane booster and chuck it in and my timing pull litrrally dissappered. I still get between -2 and -4 but like just the occasional. Mistly 0s now. Maybe torque insert is giving funny vibrations?.

I was thinking of running a dual nozzle setup as my kit actually came installed with a D01 at the top and a D05 nozzle at the bottom.

I was thinking of running maybe a D04 Nozzle at the top and a D02 nozzle at the bottom.

Or maybe dual D03 nozzles but I know closer to the TB os what gives more octance.

You are on the right path. The process is to methodically increase W/M until you get all zeros but no more than that. As long as you have easy access to WM I would tune WM for 98 map rather than 95. As I said I have been running a tune more appropriate for 100octane as my only tune for this car which is driven daily for about 2 years. Take advantage of your mods.

 

[Mostic]

I totally agree with GIACUser :thumbsup:

I am expecting you run a steady boost control of 23~25psi as you are running forge K04 actuator (if it is tuned well), in this case the progressive controller need to be adjusted as GIACUser said Start on 7 but Full on 18. Usually you need to have it to start around 1/4 the psi and full around 3/4 the psi, and sometimes you need to start a bit earlier.

I suggest running a DO5 because you are using lower octane and you can keep the progressive controller adjusted as 1/4 and 3/4 of the actual psi.

Again as Giac said the TB spacer will be an added value to your WMI setup.

 

[huzidada]

Thanks guys for the awesome advice. Will try a few setups and see what works best for my car. Im actually running the Stage 2 98 tune now with some octane booster(homemade mix of Touluene, Xylene and Methanol) and am enjoying awesome power with 0 timing pull.
Hehehe yeah my max PSI is around 25.5/26PSI and 18.5PSI by redline. I start seeing knock at around 7psi roughly according to my logs so have set controller to come on at around 5psi and max at 18psi.
Also according to DevilsOwn they reccomend the bigger nozzle closer to the TB and a smaller Nozzle at the bottom so I mite try theDual D03, or the D05 with a DO2. A friend of mine in similar conditions is having good success with a D03 Nozzle at the top and a D04 nozzle at the bottom on an APR tune though with similar mods to mine.

The sad thing is with both my 95 and 98 tunes I had minimal timing pull (-2 at max but mostly 0s in the log) and Ive been filling up at the exact same gas station so Im kinda still wondering if my mods could be causing the issue? I did CTS Intercooler, CTS pulley, CTS discharge pipe, Rs4 valve and torque insert. Only saw timing pull after this.

Also is it true that the Platinum Oem plugs dont like meth? Ive a set of BKR7EIX and PFR7S8EG and cant seem to decide which ones are better. I feel the car a bit "harder" with the OEM but super smooth with the Iridiums. Also plug gap is confusing. So many people say OEM and Ive been told .028 or even 0.025

Note- Checked all my older logs when I was Normal Stage2+ without all the new bits I put in, and There is hardly any pull on the 6 or 7 logs I have. But yeah I guess if Octane booster takes away pull it cant be hardware.

** Have requested a map from Unitronic with less timing to diagnose. I have a Uniconnect device that completely rewrites your software for each stage or map. Maybe Im not giving the maps enough time to adapt? How long does it take an ecu to adapt as I believe a reflashed ecu has to relearn and it would be typical to see timing pull as it relearns?

 

[Mostic]

As far as I know that the ecu need around 30~50 KM to relearn and adopt a new map.

 

[GIACUser]

Also is it true that the Platinum Oem plugs dont like meth? Ive a set of BKR7EIX and PFR7S8EG and cant seem to decide which ones are better. I feel the car a bit "harder" with the OEM but super smooth with the Iridiums. Also plug gap is confusing. So many people say OEM and Ive been told .028 or even 0.025


** Have requested a map from Unitronic with less timing to diagnose. I have a Uniconnect device that completely rewrites your software for each stage or map. Maybe Im not giving the maps enough time to adapt? How long does it take an ecu to adapt as I believe a reflashed ecu has to relearn and it would be typical to see timing pull as it relearns?

I have had best luck with this on my setup. NGK PFR7B .026
Give it a try, I believe this is what you should run.

I am not familiar with Unitronic but I suspect you are not loading adjustments to the tune. You are loading an entirely new tune each time. Typically it erases the ECU and then copies the new tune in to place. The tune is a set of instructions/settings so I think the results of that new tune would be immediate, there would be no old info to migrate from.

Tuners please chime in and correct me, this is just my assumption.

You have corrected the problem by altering fuel so that does eliminate things like bad knock sensors for the most part. I suspect you have done this but have you run fueling logs to determine if demand vs actual is appropriate indicating all is well with the basic fueling system. It is probably fine given the age of the car but it wouldn't hurt to do a couple of 4th gear runs from 2K to 6K

 

[huzidada]

Hehehe Ive been looking at those plugs for a while. Im gonna go ahead and get a pair.

Yes correct, tune is an entirely new reflash. And what Ive been told that even though the parameters are correct, things like fuel trim etc will have to adjust to new parameters( dunno if that makes sense and tuners input welcome)

Have done both 3rd and 4th gear fuel logs and all seems 100% correct.

Replaced my cam follower and I must say its showing some really funny wear. Ive changed cam follower twice while on Stage 2(no hpfp) and cam has always come out perfect. Changed tthis one about 6000KM ago and its looking a bit rough for wear, Will post pics shortly. Im guessing its because the oild hasnt been changed in about 9000km

 

[GIACUser]

Hehehe Ive been looking at those plugs for a while. Im gonna go ahead and get a pair.

Yes correct, tune is an entirely new reflash. And what Ive been told that even though the parameters are correct, things like fuel trim etc will have to adjust to new parameters( dunno if that makes sense and tuners input welcome)

Have done both 3rd and 4th gear fuel logs and all seems 100% correct.

Replaced my cam follower and I must say its showing some really funny wear. Ive changed cam follower twice while on Stage 2(no hpfp) and cam has always come out perfect. Changed tthis one about 6000KM ago and its looking a bit rough for wear, Will post pics shortly. Im guessing its because the oild hasnt been changed in about 9000km

Wear on follower looks normal to me.

I have been pulling my fuel pump and cam follower regularly and found less wear using Shell Rotella T-6 oil. I also consume less oil using this 5-40.

A number of months ago I got one of the few cam follwer conversion kits from INA Engineering. I converted the regular cam follower to a roller follower like the TSI motor. It was a beta kit (never made it to production) so I have been opening it up to look at the intake cam lobe and the roller etc to check for wear. Shell Rotella has been working great for me parts are showing no wear.

 

[huzidada]

Oooh wow...UBER jealous! Why didjt it make it into production? It looks like a brilliant idea for the TFSI. What milage have you put on your kit so far?

We dont get Shell T6 here. We get Shell Helix Ultra 5w40 here that I believe is quite good. I also picked up a bottle of Motul 8100 that I want to test out.

I thought my cam was supposed to jave an even black coating. Mine looks likenthe whole coating on the outside has been eaten away and only the center still has. Usuall it would be the other way no? Cam is only 6000KM old

 

[dopoz]

I thought my cam was supposed to jave an even black coating. Mine looks likenthe whole coating on the outside has been eaten away and only the center still has. Usuall it would be the other way no? Cam is only 6000KM old

It is supposed to have an even black coating with wear in the center, yours looks seriously screwed up with the wear concentrated to the outside.

 

[GIACUser]

Oooh wow...UBER jealous! Why didjt it make it into production? It looks like a brilliant idea for the TFSI. What milage have you put on your kit so far?

We dont get Shell T6 here. We get Shell Helix Ultra 5w40 here that I believe is quite good. I also picked up a bottle of Motul 8100 that I want to test out.

I thought my cam was supposed to jave an even black coating. Mine looks likenthe whole coating on the outside has been eaten away and only the center still has. Usuall it would be the other way no? Cam is only 6000KM old

I should have read your description, I just looked at the pic and it looked like the usual center wear. It is true that almost all of the followers I see have center wear not outside wear, however they have all been from BPY FSI motors, none from this newer motor. That has always puzzled me because if you read an engine design book on flat tappets the lobe that pushes them is generally tapered ever so slightly that taper causes the follower to rotate which spreads the wear out over more of the follower surface, like what you see in your picture. Mine used to look just the opposite with wear in the center right behind the plunger/spring on the other side, almost like the cam lobe is flat rather than tapered (does not rotate, just wears where greatest pressure is). Yours looks like what I would expect from a design perspective. It would be interesting to see pics from other worn cam followers from same year Golf R motor with low miles. Below is a typical one from my 2008 BPY motor (Apr HP fuel pump). I also wonder if your Golf R is maybe a little different than what we have here in the US. Might want to see what the European followers look like. Reaching for possibilities but the wear pattern is different than what I have seen but not sure if it is bad or you actually have one that has some new version/design.

Note - I never read a book on engine design but another very knowlegable member on MKV forum did post that part of a book when we were discussing the subject of lobe design when I was moving to the roller follower.

 

[huzidada]

Ive put in a new follower 1000KM ago. Will chexk its condition in another 1000 km. Also reinstalled the Autotech HPFP to make sure it was installed properly. I have a service due at 45k KM which is 2000km away, will replace with a new follower and an oil change with some Motul