Gunkata
Drag Race Newbie
nope, I think I understand just fine. More heat on the track - but also more cooling, that was my point.
6
S3 IC or SPM
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nope, I think I understand just fine. More heat on the track - but also more cooling, that was my point.
Lou Maiuri
Banned
Why does all this speculation come from people with little to no modifications? You really think an IC such as the SPM unit is really going to degrade the handling ability of the GTI? Really?
Okay then get lightweight wheels if you really want to offset the weight distribution. Arguing with no comprehension of what these upgrades to do your car in a physical application is nonsense.
Okay then get lightweight wheels if you really want to offset the weight distribution. Arguing with no comprehension of what these upgrades to do your car in a physical application is nonsense.
tman1
Ready to race!
So perhaps the million dollar (or $1000) question is, where do you draw the line on intercoolers for road and track performance?
From what claim many make on this thread, it should be pretty clear what the answer to the initial question is. Do we stop at the S3 for road use as the benefits of anything bigger are negligible?
From what claim many make on this thread, it should be pretty clear what the answer to the initial question is. Do we stop at the S3 for road use as the benefits of anything bigger are negligible?
No modifications, no comprehension? How did you draw that conclusion? Because they're not in my signature? Because I don't have 25000 posts?
I think you're too quick to judge and also misunderstanding what I'm saying. In terms of handling dynamics, adding weight in front of the axle on an already nose heavy car is the worst thing you can do. This can't be simply offset by removing weight elsewhere.
Will the average driver notice the difference on the street? Most likely not, but an experienced driver will notice it on the track. And depending on the circumstances the handling penalty could out weight the power benefit, resulting in a slower lap time.
Log the car on the track. If you see a big increase in IATs, rising further over the course of the session, or simply feel a significant drop off in power, get a better intercooler.
A_Bowers
Moderator
I'd say no to the second question. Living in the south with close to 100% humidity and 100+degrees in the summer. More is always needed.
The s3 is physically not large enough to dissipate the heat generated in these temps.
The next thing is to address the more airflow on S3 or OEM as acceptable.
This simply doesn't hold true in my opinion. Part of my reasoning is physical size. The size difference between OEM S3 and others is HUGE!! Both in FPI and flow rates. The cooler anything is allowed to run (at operating temps) the better. This speaks to electric motors in an industrial setting (my background) transformers, and the like.
Maybe if your ambients don't rise above 80 degrees, but let's face it....very few spots see that.
What I'm trying to say is this. You will reach different levels of heat dissipation with different intercoolers.
OEM is dead on the bottom....S3 is higher, a unit like SPM or even the Twintercooler has been shown to continue to raise the threshold over the one below it.
Size, FPI, flow dynamics, all are a huge and integral part of making efficient and repeatable power. Whether on the track or street.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
Gunkata
Drag Race Newbie
Found this interesting, since no dimensions are listed on APR's site itself:
http://www.goapr.com/products/intercooler_20tfsi.html
old post on vortex:
conversion:
57mm = 2.24 inches
Godspeed has essentially the same measurements:
http://www.godspeedproject.com/vw-g...-intercooler-kit-(version-2)?filter_name=2.0t
No measurements on SPM, but seems similar as well:
http://www.drivespm.com/product-p/ic10-560z-kn10-00.htm
http://www.goapr.com/products/intercooler_20tfsi.html
old post on vortex:
conversion:
57mm = 2.24 inches
Godspeed has essentially the same measurements:
http://www.godspeedproject.com/vw-g...-intercooler-kit-(version-2)?filter_name=2.0t
No measurements on SPM, but seems similar as well:
http://www.drivespm.com/product-p/ic10-560z-kn10-00.htm
xytbyk
Go Kart Champion
Let's use some game theory. To provide incentive for actual evidence of performance gains, let's say unless "your area" is extremely hot, you run a big turbo, or you run a lot of technical track days often, you're not going tell any difference between the S3 IC and any fancier, more expensive FMIC. Anybody not in at least one of those categories is probably wasting their money. PROVE ME WRONG, INDUSTRY!
Funny enough, the same debate pops up on the Evo X forums, where power numbers and track use are a lot higher, and it's much easier to switch those FMICs out. Blech.
EDIT: For full disclosure, I spent a lot of money on the EJ FMIC before SPM came in and made everybody with the "Chinese cores" drop prices and left the damn thing in my car when I traded my GTI in because it wouldn't be worth the price/effort of removal, so I'm bitter.
Funny enough, the same debate pops up on the Evo X forums, where power numbers and track use are a lot higher, and it's much easier to switch those FMICs out. Blech.
EDIT: For full disclosure, I spent a lot of money on the EJ FMIC before SPM came in and made everybody with the "Chinese cores" drop prices and left the damn thing in my car when I traded my GTI in because it wouldn't be worth the price/effort of removal, so I'm bitter.
A_Bowers
Moderator
Here is some factual data comparing the S3 with the addition of the twintercooler. Once again, I have been trying to post factual data back by VAGCOM logs.
Once again to thanks to MKV727 who ran these logs comparing the two.
If you look carefully and contrast both the S 3 and the forge unit you can see the S 3 units temperature go down and then back up as your RPM's increase. This not only debunks the airflow argument because at the top of 4th gear you're running close to 110 miles an hour. There is plenty of air flow at that point across the intercooler. So this to me is showing a plateau off efficiency. The S 3 runs out of capacity or efficiency at this point.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
grambles423
Automotive Engineer
Having been in this "aftermarket scene" for roughly 6 years now......I've seen the S3 in the most mild climates improperly perform at even Stage 2 levels. I've seen it perform well in other areas at the same levels. Trust me, I've been through this game long enough (Longer than most on these boards) to see the data, to see the failures, to see the changes and without a doubt, there is no absolute definitive "area" where one could suggest a certain IC anywhere over another.
Let's take the deep south for example. We see temperatures range as high as 105F. That is WITHOUT humidity factored in. Doing so raises it to death valley levels and beyond. In doing so, you can throw out the window any design by OEM standards. Reason I say that, is because volkswagen designs for a certain temperature and anything higher than 80F is normally the cut off. Often times, these areas are considered "hot climates" but since the USA is lumped into a country specific category when doing build lots, you CANNOT assume that a certain car will go south or west or east...etc etc.
That being said, take the APR IC design. I was around for their initial design back in 2005-2006. People obviously didnt like the price point when it was initially offered (Actually people still dont....), however, think of design an IC at one of the worst conditions imaginable in the USA. This core design with built in with heat dissappation OF THE SOUTH in mind as well as accomodating the flow targets for various levels of power. Speculate all you want, go back and read their findings and their studies and you'll find totally out matched data that strongly proves their targets.
I did not pay for my IC. I won it in the raffle. If I were to drop ANY sort of money it would be their IC EVEN AT STAGE 1 LEVELS! Why? Because this is the south. If you EVER come down here with a S3 during the peak summer times, you WILL NOT have any power to justify even doing one WOT pull on the interstate. Plain and simple.
Browsing through this thread alone gives me a headache because people are over analyzing a simple fix to a common problem. People are so worried about SEEING data or having definitive proof to justify their shit purchases of crap chinese cores. Hell EVEN THE COMPANIES will say that the cores can be improved upon and that they're REDEISGNING their core to match the level of performance from the APR IC. I Had the owner of the company HIMSELF tell that to me. He's just trying to make a buck and outsell the other knockoff brands.
One thing people really must get is that APR is not out to get people. They are here to bring well designed products to the table and offer them at a good price to match the level of return that it will get you. I've crunched the numbers, I'm on the "inside" I guess you could say, and there's no other company that comes close to the engineering technical know how like they do. So much so, that my own Automotive Experience with an OEM puts me right in place with a job with APR. No, I did not accept it, but it shows the level technical knowledge that flows through that place. They know what they're doing.....I just dont understand why people constantly ridicule them when they dont even KNOW HALF OF WHAT THEY"RE TALKING ABOUT!
I've said my peace. Buy damn IC and stop this nonsense.
Let's take the deep south for example. We see temperatures range as high as 105F. That is WITHOUT humidity factored in. Doing so raises it to death valley levels and beyond. In doing so, you can throw out the window any design by OEM standards. Reason I say that, is because volkswagen designs for a certain temperature and anything higher than 80F is normally the cut off. Often times, these areas are considered "hot climates" but since the USA is lumped into a country specific category when doing build lots, you CANNOT assume that a certain car will go south or west or east...etc etc.
That being said, take the APR IC design. I was around for their initial design back in 2005-2006. People obviously didnt like the price point when it was initially offered (Actually people still dont....), however, think of design an IC at one of the worst conditions imaginable in the USA. This core design with built in with heat dissappation OF THE SOUTH in mind as well as accomodating the flow targets for various levels of power. Speculate all you want, go back and read their findings and their studies and you'll find totally out matched data that strongly proves their targets.
I did not pay for my IC. I won it in the raffle. If I were to drop ANY sort of money it would be their IC EVEN AT STAGE 1 LEVELS! Why? Because this is the south. If you EVER come down here with a S3 during the peak summer times, you WILL NOT have any power to justify even doing one WOT pull on the interstate. Plain and simple.
Browsing through this thread alone gives me a headache because people are over analyzing a simple fix to a common problem. People are so worried about SEEING data or having definitive proof to justify their shit purchases of crap chinese cores. Hell EVEN THE COMPANIES will say that the cores can be improved upon and that they're REDEISGNING their core to match the level of performance from the APR IC. I Had the owner of the company HIMSELF tell that to me. He's just trying to make a buck and outsell the other knockoff brands.
One thing people really must get is that APR is not out to get people. They are here to bring well designed products to the table and offer them at a good price to match the level of return that it will get you. I've crunched the numbers, I'm on the "inside" I guess you could say, and there's no other company that comes close to the engineering technical know how like they do. So much so, that my own Automotive Experience with an OEM puts me right in place with a job with APR. No, I did not accept it, but it shows the level technical knowledge that flows through that place. They know what they're doing.....I just dont understand why people constantly ridicule them when they dont even KNOW HALF OF WHAT THEY"RE TALKING ABOUT!
I've said my peace. Buy damn IC and stop this nonsense.
A_Bowers
Moderator
This run looking at the blue line which is my intake air temperature sensor reading shows a drop all the way through the Rev band and hold steady from the middle to the top the red line. This log was made after several fourth gear pulls to log boost readings. I'm not pointing out which 1 is better I'm simply stating factual evidence to support a larger intercooler will perform better for the most part than the s3 or the OEM one.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
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