6
Who has switched tunes between APR and Unitronic - and why?
- Thread starter sixthvw
- Start date
Bender1
Banned
I think something that needs to be emphasized here is everything that will come up is all shades of gray that look different depending on where you are standing.
The three big ones all offer excellent tunes all of which I would personally run on my car, no questions asked.
I think it comes back to what I have been harping on for years - customer service. Whoever treats you better or supports you best locally is who you should go with.
The three big ones all offer excellent tunes all of which I would personally run on my car, no questions asked.
I think it comes back to what I have been harping on for years - customer service. Whoever treats you better or supports you best locally is who you should go with.
grambles423
Automotive Engineer
I think the lack of program switching could allow for more memory to be used on other things. What that entails is hidden within the secrecy of the company. Any trust me, they will never tell you.
Just keep in mind that our engines have NO octane sensor. Would be a nice thing to add, if the ECU has port for it. That way, you could modify a timing curve to WHATEVER gas you had. Until then, I'm guessing they run the timing profiles off of experience, knowledge, and testing.
I think APR's files offer more flexibility in terms of locale and choice of octane and OOPS moments (89 fill ups). But also the aggressiveness of the 100.
Like Bender said, I really wouldn't have much question running the APR (Obviously....I'm already running them
) or GIAC tune in terms of program switching. Unitronic I would have hesitation since our gas is so mixed and crappy here and picking ONE file would either limit my power......or my gas station choices.
FlyByGti1
Go Kart Champion
Definitely agree with this. Had some good customer service with APR, and my tuner is an APR dealer. I think from talking to him it was nice to know that I had someone to back me, that was half the decision, plus timing and price.
I think the lack of program switching could allow for more memory to be used on other things. What that entails is hidden within the secrecy of the company. Any trust me, they will never tell you.
Just keep in mind that our engines have NO octane sensor. Would be a nice thing to add, if the ECU has port for it. That way, you could modify a timing curve to WHATEVER gas you had. Until then, I'm guessing they run the timing profiles off of experience, knowledge, and testing.
I think APR's files offer more flexibility in terms of locale and choice of octane and OOPS moments (89 fill ups). But also the aggressiveness of the 100.
Like Bender said, I really wouldn't have much question running the APR (Obviously....I'm already running them
Very true. I know that having the switching was great, espeically because I am seeing more and more random octane levels. I see 92 a lot on the PA turnpike and have seen 88 octane recently. I understand each company will have secrets but clearly they are doing something right otherwise they wouldn't be in business as long as they are and each wouldn't have the backing they do.
I definitely agree with this, especially because I wind up in places that don't have shell or exxon, etc. Matter of fact I wind up using a big western PA grocery chain for fuel just because it's convenient for me. Big company I feel like I can have a little faith in their gas but for those times when I can't get to something like that or have to settle for something a little lower than 93 I like to know that I am making the decision on it.
Noize
Go Kart Champion
Not at all, think of it more like a cake mix. The main ingredients here are fueling, boost, cam timing, and ignition timing. Our main limitations are flow (turbo is the big restriction if we're dealing with a K03) and octane.
Neither way is wrong, they're just different ways of achieving results. One person might use more butter, one more sugar. You can't use a lot of both without higher octane, or you'll knock your cake off the table.
FlyByGti1
Go Kart Champion
Nooooooo don't put Giant Eagle gas in your car! That makes Bender sad!
I know I know. But shopping there and getting money off gas is so enticing. I've been trying to be better and go to the Sunoco down the street or BP or Marathon. I just never really plan ahead enough.Not at all, think of it more like a cake mix. The main ingredients here are fueling, boost, cam timing, and ignition timing. Our main limitations are flow (turbo is the big restriction if we're dealing with a K03) and octane.
Neither way is wrong, they're just different ways of achieving results. One person might use more butter, one more sugar. You can't use a lot of both without higher octane, or you'll knock your cake off the table.
That is actually a really good analogy. Makes a lot of sense too. Might have to think about it that way from now on
grambles423
Automotive Engineer
+1
I think that faith is attributed to consistency of gas. I KNOW that there is a pilot gas station near Honda that gives me slight increase in timing pull in 93OCT mode. Every time, no changes. BUT there is a Shell right next to it that rarely gives me that extra pull I see from the Pilot.
However, there is also some small gas stations here in the country that have 100% gasoline, no ethanol, but it tends to be Tier 2 and iffy sometimes and NEVER comes above 89oct.
grambles423
Automotive Engineer
Not at all, think of it more like a cake mix. The main ingredients here are fueling, boost, cam timing, and ignition timing. Our main limitations are flow (turbo is the big restriction if we're dealing with a K03) and octane.
Neither way is wrong, they're just different ways of achieving results. One person might use more butter, one more sugar. You can't use a lot of both without higher octane, or you'll knock your cake off the table.
This post almost makes TOO much sense.
Noize
Go Kart Champion
You don't need an "octane sensor", and the only place I can imagine you'd use something like that is in a flex fuel car where stoich is wildly different.
The knock sensor is the great foot that stops the engine from being damaged. If you get bad gas, the engine can retard timing on the fly and even add fuel. Obviously, you don't want this to be happening, because you'll be losing power. But all things being equal, you can run a 93 octane map on 91 octane gas, you'll just make less power than you would on 91 because the quality of the gas is poorer than what the ECU was mapped for.
Also, don't be afraid of higher timing and lower boost, because that's how all these cars come from the factory. They run a ton of advance up top. When you bring the boost up, you need to bring the timing down. There's not a perfect recipe, and every engine is different.
The way Unitronic does things isn't inherently more dangerous, *unless* there is truth to this knock sensor deadening. If there is, all bets are off.
The lower boost in the midrange is going to account for the less midrange pull, and exacerbate the hyperkinetic nature and high rpm acceleration feelings of the engine up top with the K04, since there's some torque missing there.
If you really want to know, bring the cars to the track and see which has higher trap speeds.
To me, the style of tuning isn't in question re the APR K04 fiasco, the partial throttle drivability is. But I've heard they're revising the tune, and hopefully those customers having issues will be addressed.
This +1. Even with these "more aggressive" tunes that run higher timing the ECU would never allow over boost to the point of turbo/engine harm. If anything, timing would be reduced to compensate. What are the fuel trims looking like on WOT runs with the uni tune?
grambles423
Automotive Engineer
Tuning excluded: Now you're comparing Apples to Oranges. I think ANYONE could modify a K04 and make as much, if not MORE power than a GT28 with mid level tuning.
Its about your compressor map and what you're willing to do in terms of safety. Running an IHI to its MAX......I mean.....MAX yields some great power (K04 like). I've seen it, I've talked with the individual that has done it and its not safe by any standard. In the engineering world, we call this our factory of safety. What's your bending point?
Typical philosophy is test the car at its max and dial back 1-2 steps from there for a "safe" car. Too many variables to consider breaking at that point. Why not make excellent power at 3/4 of its potential? Making THAT number as high as you can is where the reliability is.
Zach, its Lou, pls don't ban me lol. But from being in the 135i n54 platform for a bit, hybrid turbo is all the rage. I mean these guys go apeshit and pay 3000$ for 60 more hp than the stockers allow. But keep in mind, a Cobb protune is the standard for these hybrid turbos. I know you and I have had this discussion about porting a k04 but with that increased flow you can run less boost and more timing like we are seeing here. I really think someone should give this a shot with Maestro. There is a guy in the area with stage II Maestro, right? I really want to see him buy a hybrid and get a pro-tune that will work well within safety levels and out perform a k04 by 40-60 hp reliably.