GOLFMK7
GOLFMK6
GOLFMKV
VW GTI MKVI Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVI Forum / VW GTI Forum - Golfmk6.com



Go Back   VW GTI MKVI Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVI Forum / VW GTI Forum - Golfmk6.com > Technical Topics > GTI 2.0T Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Tunes

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-06-2010, 03:14 PM   #1
harddrivin1le
Rally Car Newbie
 
Drives: 2010 GTI
Join Date: May 2010
Location: RI
Posts: 273
The dangers of increasing GTI turbo-boost

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...TFSI_125-210kW

"The 169 kW (227 HP) and higher versions have stronger pistons and gudgeon pins, new rings, reinforced connecting rods, new bearings, reinforced cylinder block at the main bearing pedestals and cap, new lightweight aluminium-silicon alloy cylinder head...NOT shared with the lower output variants."

For example, the 2011 Audi TTS uses a 2.0T engine, which is rated at 265 HP.

That engine therefore includes a host of internal strength enhancing upgrades (including a different cylinder block) that the GTIs lack.

Audi does that in order to increase engine life and reliability under the higher boost pressures (17.4 PSIG) that are associated with that engine.

VW/Audi engineers clearly feel that something on the order of 225 HP is about the maximum limit for the GTI's engine when long term reliability is considered.

Boosting your GTI to anything much beyond that level will result in significantly reduced engine life and a significantly higher likelihood of engine failure (in the form of bent bent rods, burnt bearings, etc.)

Even something as "mild" as an APR Stage 1 is going to adversely impact engine life and reliability over time. Anyone who does a Stage 2 or 3 level mod and drives the car hard will likely be looking at some very real (and very expensive) problems by the 50,000 mile mark.

Our engines are designed with the stock power levels (220 HP or so) in mind and apparently don't have a whole lot of room to spare.

More information:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

"The engine is an upgraded version of the well-traveled VW/Audi turbocharged, intercooled, and direct-injected 2.0-liter four. In basic TT tune, fed by an IHI turbo delivering 13.1 psi of max boost, it generates 200 horsepower and 207 pound-feet of torque. Enhanced by a beefier block, an aluminum-silicon alloy head, and a heftier crank —and nourished by a bigger BorgWarner turbo blowing 17.4 psi max—this engine churns out 265 horsepower and 258 pound-feet from 2500 to 5000 rpm. "

Last edited by harddrivin1le; 10-06-2010 at 03:36 PM.
harddrivin1le is offline  
Old 10-06-2010, 03:50 PM   #2
victorM
Drag Race Newbie
 
Drives: GTI mk6 tornado red
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Croatia
Posts: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by harddrivin1le View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...TFSI_125-210kW

"The 169 kW (227 HP) and higher versions have stronger pistons and gudgeon pins, new rings, reinforced connecting rods, new bearings, reinforced cylinder block at the main bearing pedestals and cap, new lightweight aluminium-silicon alloy cylinder head...NOT shared with the lower output variants."

For example, the 2011 Audi TTS uses a 2.0T engine, which is rated at 265 HP.

That engine therefore includes a host of internal strength enhancing upgrades (including a different cylinder block) that the GTIs lack.

Audi does that in order to increase engine life and reliability under the higher boost pressures (17.4 PSIG) that are associated with that engine.

VW/Audi engineers clearly feel that something on the order of 225 HP is about the maximum limit for the GTI's engine when long term reliability is considered.

Boosting your GTI to anything much beyond that level will result in significantly reduced engine life and a significantly higher likelihood of engine failure (in the form of bent bent rods, burnt bearings, etc.)

Even something as "mild" as an APR Stage 1 is going to adversely impact engine life and reliability over time. Anyone who does a Stage 2 or 3 level mod and drives the car hard will likely be looking at some very real (and very expensive) problems by the 50,000 mile mark.

Our engines are designed with the stock power levels (220 HP or so) in mind and apparently don't have a whole lot of room to spare.

More information:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

"The engine is an upgraded version of the well-traveled VW/Audi turbocharged, intercooled, and direct-injected 2.0-liter four. In basic TT tune, fed by an IHI turbo delivering 13.1 psi of max boost, it generates 200 horsepower and 207 pound-feet of torque. Enhanced by a beefier block, an aluminum-silicon alloy head, and a heftier crank —and nourished by a bigger BorgWarner turbo blowing 17.4 psi max—this engine churns out 265 horsepower and 258 pound-feet from 2500 to 5000 rpm. "
good post, thanks
victorM is offline  
Old 10-06-2010, 03:56 PM   #3
Dubtastic
FIA World Rally Car Champion
 
Drives: one with 4 wheels
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: orlando
Posts: 527
You know this does bring some additional thought into mind. If APR has the ability to give the equivalent of about 230 hp with a flash then they should have the ability to maybe introduce a lite tune. Some of you may find it pointless, but a tune that maybe adds 15 extra hp and the increased throttle response that the reflash has been known to give.

It would be interesting to see what APR or everyone thinks about this? A lite tune would come in at a lower price but would allow the customer to upgrade to stage 1 and beyond if necessary.
Dubtastic is offline  
Old 10-06-2010, 03:57 PM   #4
shahabdin
FIA World Rally Car Champion
 
shahabdin's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 BGP R-Line 1.4 TSI 160hp
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 679
Not surprised. That also pretty much supports in their favour (VW group's) the sudden hike in value of those models. Start changing all the piston heads, rings, silicone coats etc... and the price will rocket high! So does this mean all those APRd dudes out there are running their engine pistons at over their permissible levels?
__________________
He who has never dared to own a Golf is he who has yet to discover the other side to driving. MAX IT OUT DUDES DESPITE WHAT A CAMARO SS CLUB MAY CLAIM!

shahabdin is offline  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:01 PM   #5
harddrivin1le
Rally Car Newbie
 
Drives: 2010 GTI
Join Date: May 2010
Location: RI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by shahabdin View Post
So does this mean all those APRd dudes out there are running their engine pistons at over their permissible levels?
That's absolutely what it means.

I'd be surprised if the engine held together much beyond the 50K mile mark on an APR Stage 2 or 3 car that is routinely driven with some vigor.

The VW/Audi group wouldn't be specifying all of those expensive parts for the higher output version of their 2.0 T engines unless those parts were absolutely necessary.
harddrivin1le is offline  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:04 PM   #6
BigRobSA
FIA GT Newbie
 
BigRobSA's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Shadow Blue Metallic GTI
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 825
Send a message via AIM to BigRobSA
You've got to pay to play.

If/when shit breaks inside, I'm opening it up (like I've done to my previous vehicles) and boring/stroking/forging all of it. Then, BIIIIG turbo.

Since the block is iron, THAT isn't the weak point...all of the "soft" internals are.
__________________
2010 VW 2dr 6M GTI-Shadow Blue Metallic:
Dynaudio, Sunroof ,17" Denvers with all-seasons, Bi-Xenons,cloth (K04 & APR tune, APR intercooler, Devil's Own water/meth, USRT TB spacer with meth bung, custom 3" turbo-back,Forge Twintake, BSH throttle pipe, BSH Tq mount insert), Eurojet boost gauge in New South vent pod, AWE tuning DV & DV Reloc,ClutchMasters FX350.
BigRobSA is offline  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:23 PM   #7
harddrivin1le
Rally Car Newbie
 
Drives: 2010 GTI
Join Date: May 2010
Location: RI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRobSA View Post
Since the block is iron, THAT isn't the weak point...all of the "soft" internals are.
The EA888's block is weak, which is the reason that the higher output Audi 2.0 T engines use the old EA113 block.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...petrol_engines

In its present form, the EA888's lower end (block, rods, pistons, bearings, wrist pins, pistons, etc.) are weak for a turbocharged engine.

People who are significantly increasing their engine's output by increased boost levels are destroying their engines.

Pushing an EA888 engine to anything near the 300 HP level is going to result in a very short engine life and a very sad (and expensive) ending.

So if you want to really go fast, buy a car with an engine that's designed to do so.

Last edited by harddrivin1le; 10-06-2010 at 04:30 PM.
harddrivin1le is offline  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:29 PM   #8
plac
Guest
 
Drives:
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by harddrivin1le View Post
I'd be surprised if the engine held together much beyond the 50K mile mark on an APR Stage 2 or 3 car that is routinely driven with some vigor.
ROFL!! just like all the 100k mile MK5s that blew up at 50k miles.. oh wait, they didnt.. BIG difference between stage 2 and stage 3..
 
Old 10-06-2010, 04:31 PM   #9
harddrivin1le
Rally Car Newbie
 
Drives: 2010 GTI
Join Date: May 2010
Location: RI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by plac View Post
ROFL!! just like all the 100k mile MK5s that blew up at 50k miles.. oh wait, they didnt.. BIG difference between stage 2 and stage 3..
Did those MK5s use the EA888 engine or did it use the older (and stronger) EA113 engine? (Answer, they used the EA113 engines, since the EA888 engines didn't make their way into MKV GTIs until late 2008.)

It's quite clear that VW/Audi engineers don't specify the EA888 engine for high output applications.

It's also quite clear that ALL of their high performance (227 HP and up) 2.0 T engines use fortified versions of the EA113 engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...petrol_engines

I'm assuming that VW/Audi engineers know more about their engines than you do, so I'll stand behind their opinion, as demonstrated by their chosen applications.

Last edited by harddrivin1le; 10-06-2010 at 04:36 PM.
harddrivin1le is offline  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:31 PM   #10
chapusin
Formula 5000 Driver
 
chapusin's Avatar
 
Drives: and drinks
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,936
So? Don't chip your car.

/endthread
__________________
2010 BLACK MK6
El Negro build page: http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9735
chapusin is offline  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:36 PM   #11
BigRobSA
FIA GT Newbie
 
BigRobSA's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Shadow Blue Metallic GTI
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 825
Send a message via AIM to BigRobSA
Cool. Then a new block might be in order. Oh well, it's only money, you can't take it with you.
__________________
2010 VW 2dr 6M GTI-Shadow Blue Metallic:
Dynaudio, Sunroof ,17" Denvers with all-seasons, Bi-Xenons,cloth (K04 & APR tune, APR intercooler, Devil's Own water/meth, USRT TB spacer with meth bung, custom 3" turbo-back,Forge Twintake, BSH throttle pipe, BSH Tq mount insert), Eurojet boost gauge in New South vent pod, AWE tuning DV & DV Reloc,ClutchMasters FX350.
BigRobSA is offline  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:43 PM   #12
plac
Guest
 
Drives:
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by harddrivin1le View Post
Did those MK5s use the EA888 engine or did it use the older (and stronger) EA113 engine? (Answer, they used the EA113 engines, since the EA888 engines didn't make their way into MKV GTIs until late 2008.)

It's quite clear that VW/Audi engineers don't specify the EA888 engine for high output applications.

It's also quite clear that ALL of their high performance (227 HP and up) 2.0 T engines use fortified versions of the EA113 engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...petrol_engines

I'm assuming that VW/Audi engineers know more about their engines than you do, so I'll stand behind their opinion, as demonstrated by their chosen applications.
Enjoy not chipping your car and staying safe.
 
Old 10-06-2010, 04:43 PM   #13
harddrivin1le
Rally Car Newbie
 
Drives: 2010 GTI
Join Date: May 2010
Location: RI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by chapusin View Post
So? Don't chip your car.
Or I can chip it and ruin the engine. I think I'll skip the chip.

Even APR's Stage 1 tune's output puts the EA888's (MK6 GTI engine) output at 254 HP.

http://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_up...tsi_trans.html

VW/Audi engineers specify the older and stronger EA113 engine block with a host of internal upgrades for factory power levels starting at 227 HP.

So VW/Audi engineers are essentially telling us that an APR stage 1 tune puts an otherwise stock EA888 engine over the edge in terms of longevity and reliability.

See, I don't care about this because I bought the GTI for what it is.

I'd have bought something else is I wanted something faster. At this point in my life I don't. I've owned MUCH faster cars in the past and that was fine then.

Last edited by harddrivin1le; 10-06-2010 at 04:52 PM.
harddrivin1le is offline  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:48 PM   #14
Dubtastic
FIA World Rally Car Champion
 
Drives: one with 4 wheels
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: orlando
Posts: 527
I am sure there is a thresold rating on all internal parts, APR is probably pushing well within the threshold. I would assume the only weakness of a pressurized engine would be the check valves and easily replaceble parts. I am sure APR is not pushing the limits of the engine.
Dubtastic is offline  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:48 PM   #15
chapusin
Formula 5000 Driver
 
chapusin's Avatar
 
Drives: and drinks
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,936
Quote:
Originally Posted by harddrivin1le View Post
Or I can chip it and ruin the engine. I think I'll skip the chip.

See I don't care about this because I bought the GTI for what it is.

I'd have bought something else is I wanted something faster.
Then explain to me again the whole point of this thread?
__________________
2010 BLACK MK6
El Negro build page: http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9735
chapusin is offline  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:50 PM   #16
Shimino
FIA World Rally Car Newbie
 
Drives: 2010 CSG 6MT APR STG3
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 434
Send a message via AIM to Shimino Send a message via Skype™ to Shimino
Trade in after warranty expires!
My 07 FSI used to boost up to 25 Psi in a good run (normally 22) blew up at 69K miles.
Shimino is offline  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:56 PM   #17
harddrivin1le
Rally Car Newbie
 
Drives: 2010 GTI
Join Date: May 2010
Location: RI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubtastic View Post
I am sure there is a thresold rating on all internal parts, APR is probably pushing well within the threshold. I would assume the only weakness of a pressurized engine would be the check valves and easily replaceble parts. I am sure APR is not pushing the limits of the engine.
Your "sure," yet VW/Audi engineers clearly feel otherwise.

So who's right - you or them?

Here, give post 1 a read:

http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showpo...29&postcount=1

APR tunes DRAMATICALLY increase engine torque (via increased boost levels), which results in equally dramatic increases in internal engine loads (e.g. pistons, rods, rings, wrist pins, bearings, main bearing caps, crank and block). Higher boost also increase loading on the cylinder head.

That's why VW engineers specify stronger versions of ALL those parts for all 2.0 T engines that are rated at 227 HP or higher from the factory.

Yet, you think 254 HP - 361 HP (APR Stage 1 - 3) is fine for the base GTI engine?

Do you think VW/Audi go to all that extra effort and expense for nothing?

Last edited by harddrivin1le; 10-06-2010 at 05:05 PM.
harddrivin1le is offline  
Old 10-06-2010, 05:02 PM   #18
cnimativ
Rally Car Newbie
 
Drives: 2010 GTI 2dr MT CSG
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 303
surprise surprise, modding a car decreases its potential useful life! Thanks Sherlock!
cnimativ is offline  
Old 10-06-2010, 05:07 PM   #19
harddrivin1le
Rally Car Newbie
 
Drives: 2010 GTI
Join Date: May 2010
Location: RI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnimativ View Post
surprise surprise, modding a car decreases its potential useful life! Thanks Sherlock!
Not always.

Some engines are substantially "over-built" in order to successfully cope with much higher power levels with very little sacrifice in longevity. For example, an LS1 V8 fitted with a mild cam/pushrod/vlave spring swap, an ECU flash and a set of headers with a cat-back exhaust can pump out more than 430 SAE Net HP (500 + Gross HP) at the crank for a couple of hundred thousand miles with nothing other than routine oil and filter changes.

But it's quite clear that the MK6's EA888 engine is not an "over-built" engine.

The best way to go fast in a GTI is to start with a 227 HP+ Audi EA113 engine, which is FACTORY DESIGNED AND BUILT to handle higher power levels (likely up to 300 HP or so).

Given the time, expense and hassles associated with that, it would make more sense to simply buy a faster stock car (e.g. BMW 335i).

Last edited by harddrivin1le; 10-06-2010 at 05:14 PM.
harddrivin1le is offline  
Old 10-06-2010, 05:09 PM   #20
plac
Guest
 
Drives:
Posts: n/a
weirdest thread ever, man....
 
 
Closed Thread

Tags
chipping isn't bad, mk5 > mk6

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.