Do you need a built motor for APR Stage 3?

Just curious if there is anyone out there running the APR Stage 3 kit on a stock motor. I know it's recommended especially when running race fuel but if just running 91 or 93 can you get away with not having to build the motor. I am currently APR K04 the power is nice but as you all know you eventually get used to it and want more.

According to their website, the stage 3 kit on 93 makes 369 wtq. Rods are good to about 400, depending on how the torque is brought on. I'd say at 370 you're pretty safe on stock internals.

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fuelforfire87 said:

Just curious if there is anyone out there running the APR Stage 3 kit on a stock motor. I know it's recommended especially when running race fuel but if just running 91 or 93 can you get away with not having to build the motor. I am currently APR K04 the power is nice but as you all know you eventually get used to it and want more.

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You can add water/meth to your K04 and get to or greater than stock engine internals limits with your K04.

My K04 dynoed at 383WHP & 430WTQ with 91 pump gas at an E25 mix and with a 2 nozzle water/meth system (570cc injection total). The cost of a water/meth system is much less than a Stage 3 and spools sooner. BTW how ever you get to increased power you will want an LSD.

What tune were you on? ^

riceburner said:

What tune were you on? ^

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I am on the APR tune.

Turbo Beetle said:

You can add water/meth to your K04 and get to or greater than stock engine internals limits with your K04.

My K04 dynoed at 383WHP & 430WTQ with 91 pump gas at an E25 mix and with a 2 nozzle water/meth system (570cc injection total). The cost of a water/meth system is much less than a Stage 3 and spools sooner. BTW how ever you get to increased power you will want an LSD.

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What water meth system did you end up going with and what was the cost?


I already have a LSD so I am good there.

Turbo Beetle said:

You can add water/meth to your K04 and get to or greater than stock engine internals limits with your K04.



My K04 dynoed at 383WHP & 430WTQ with 91 pump gas at an E25 mix and with a 2 nozzle water/meth system (570cc injection total). The cost of a water/meth system is much less than a Stage 3 and spools sooner. BTW how ever you get to increased power you will want an LSD.

Click to expand...

What tune / meth system were you using? Was it a standard k04 or a hybrid or a billet wheel or anything?


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Turbo Beetle said:

You can add water/meth to your K04 and get to or greater than stock engine internals limits with your K04.

My K04 dynoed at 383WHP & 430WTQ with 91 pump gas at an E25 mix and with a 2 nozzle water/meth system (570cc injection total). The cost of a water/meth system is much less than a Stage 3 and spools sooner. BTW how ever you get to increased power you will want an LSD.

Click to expand...

Wow, best numbers I have seen for a stock K04. Torque is just crazy. The value of an LSD can't be overstated for even a stock car if you are going to the track.

Who did the work on your car to get the power out of it?

Has to be a hybrid k04, no way a stock one can make those numbers. Rotary knight ran full E85 on a f23t and I don't believe he ran better internals and that is probably the most power you'll make from a hybrid k04

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Might depend on dyno type

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GIACUser said:

Wow, best numbers I have seen for a stock K04. Torque is just crazy. The value of an LSD can't be overstated for even a stock car if you are going to the track.

Who did the work on your car to get the power out of it?

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I bought a used CTS K04 and I believe it is stock. I was on the APR 3.1 100 octane file at time of dyno. My 12 Turbo beetle was on the dyno at Metric Autosports in Huntington Beach CA and I asked for reference what stock GTI's put down on their dyno and they said 185WHP.

I have not done before and after dyno's to prove the E25-E30 makes more power only after,(383WHP & 430 WTQ) but seat of the pants tests says the ethanol blend seems to result in faster spool and more torque as in major tire spin at 60 MPH in 3rd gear with a Wavetrac and Firestone Indy 500 245/40/19's.

I have found that on stock fueling I can go as high as E30 with the K04 for daily driving if I keep at aprox 5500 RPM or less which covers my daily driving style. The more E85 used to make higher E blends has less and less effect and going past E25-E30 and will result in fuel cuts as you add more E85 and go higher in the rev range on stock fueling and going past E30 seems to really reduce your gas millage.

My water/meth is Devil's Own progressive (aprox $350) with 2 nozzles 250cc just after I/C and 320cc at the T/B spacer. BTW the #4 (320cc nozzle) I bought from you GIACUser.

I am not an expert and I have used info gathered from this site and other sites and I don't know if anything I have done makes any sense but this is what seems to work for my 2.0 TSI CCTA so far.

smanierre said:

Has to be a hybrid k04, no way a stock one can make those numbers. Rotary knight ran full E85 on a f23t and I don't believe he ran better internals and that is probably the most power you'll make from a hybrid k04

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I second this... Rotary Knight did just about anything and everything to a k04 to get near 400ish. And as pointed out he was full E85.

Seems crazy those numbers ive NEVER heard of anyone running those numbers.

lilonespaz said:

I second this... Rotary Knight did just about anything and everything to a k04 to get near 400ish. And as pointed out he was full E85.

Seems crazy those numbers ive NEVER heard of anyone running those numbers.

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Also to get 430 wtq on a k04 would probably be a very quick, hard spike and with it being so aggressive at those numbers I feel like rods wouldn't last very long, if at all.

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lilonespaz said:

I second this... Rotary Knight did just about anything and everything to a k04 to get near 400ish. And as pointed out he was full E85.

Seems crazy those numbers ive NEVER heard of anyone running those numbers.

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Rotary Knight did do almost every thing but he did not run water/meth for cooling or fuel.

I followed Rotary on his quest and he saw very little gains from E50 to E85 and if I remember right he had torque over 440WTQ and dialed it back in the tune to protect his rods. I am not going to argue with you or anyone else but before you say you have not seen numbers like those you question maybe you should look some where else.

I have seen first hand on a dyno what works for my car but can you say you have seen first hand that it dose not work? You can call my results crazy but if you give E-mix with water/meth a try you might not be so surprised.

smanierre said:

Also to get 430 wtq on a k04 would probably be a very quick, hard spike and with it being so aggressive at those numbers I feel like rods wouldn't last very long, if at all.

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Torque is 350lbs at 3700RPM and ramps up to 430lbs at 4500 RPM without a spike before or after. I agree 100% that stock rods should not be expected to hold 430WTQ for any time at all but ask Rotary Knight how much torque he put on his stock rods before he dialed the torque (440WTQ or more) down in his tune.