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2013 MK6 vs. 2009 Civic Si (FA5)
- Thread starter vinyvolingy
- Start date
Brinkmen
VW NUT!
Thank you. Plus Vtecs have little low end tq. Even with high HP, the tq numbers will usually be much less than HP. 2.0TSI has a much wider power band that is available much earlier. A SI has to have a turbo or a supercharger to really be in the same mod class. That also requires much more work than an ecu tune and a downpipe/TBE install for a TSI Stage 2.
You proved your ignorance when you said something about a downpipe on a NA car. Torque isn't all racing (especially straight line) is about. And especially not low end tq. Who's down low in the power band when racing anyways?
Take a look at the GTI vs GTD. Torque might get you moving but the HP is what gets you down the track / road.
That said mod for mod a GTI beats the SI, but that's not news. But the gap is closed when taking a trip around a track.
You just contradicted yourself there. If its fast enough to beat one, how come you were only neck and neck? I'd love to see your dyno sheet for those numbers you just quoted. Video or it didn't happen. How much does it cost for all those mods? I bet its closer to $2000 or more.
As you can see what the GTI lacks in HP for its weight, it much more than makes up for with torque.
Lets have a few examples here: :fighting0030:
#1: The non mod person. The majority of people who buy GTIs and Civic SI aren't going to modify their cars at all for warranty reasons and/or they just don't care about any more power. In which case GTI > SI. Sorry, but the numbers don't lie.
#2: The budget modifier. Budget: $600. Type of person who wants a bit better than OEM. Not as common, but still a lot of these type of people out there. Stage 1 for GTI. GTI>SI. (Plus you just agreed with this one.)
#3: Even less common. People who want about the best you can get without more major (turbo, etc) mods. Stage 2 can easily be had for the smart shopper for under $1000 total (including Stage 1). GTI>SI.
#4: The rare option. People who have around $3000 (Total) to spend. A smart shopper can get a K04 for under $2000. APRs numbers for this is 356hp/351tq. (http://www.goapr.com/products/turbo_trans_20_tsi_k04.html) Happens to be on sale right now brand new for under $2400. Can easily be had for closer to $2000 or less if used. Likely still GTI>SI. But I admit I don't know as much what you can do to a FA5 mod wise for less than $3000, but I still highly doubt you will get numbers that high for that amount of cash. Even if you supercharge or turbo one. I'd be interested to see some numbers if you still want to claim SI>GTI on that one.
#5: The extremely rare option. I agree on this one When you get up into the 400hp + range, it can cost more to modify a GTI. But how many people get up there? Few for either cars. :iono:
Most people don't spend much more than $1000 if they are going to mod their cars.
Seriously why are you even here? Seems like you're just trolling because I've seen you doing this stuff on other threads, mainly in the vs section. :thumbdown: I'm not on your Honda forums talking shit about your cars like I'm the authority on everything and about how ours are better. Even though they are.Even if you have numbers to back up your claims (which you won't for examples 1-3 for sure), nobody here really cares.
End of day, bro. Its personal preference and what actually happens on the street. We like our cars better for many reasons. That is why we are on GolfMk6.com, not ithinkiknoweverythingaboutvwsbecauseidriveamodifiedhonda.com. :w00t:
:laugh:
Did you miss the "keep up with part?" I was also running an injen cai and 70mm exhaust. With a proper intake and 3" exhaust I would of been slightly faster.
I was never dynoed with bolt ons, but if you don't believe that a i/h/e/tuned k20 can make 220whp then you know even less about Hondas than I thought.
i/h/e/tune can be had for about $1500 if you shop around for good deals or even quality used parts. My bolt on set cost me $1650 to be exact.
And? What the Si lacks in torque it makes up for with a higher readline and shorter gearing. I'm not seeing what your point is.
Again, why are we completely ignoring the fact that the GTI costs AT LEAST $1500 more starting MSRP? If we're truly talking $ for $, the Si should have that much extra to play around with.
As for your scenarios
#1: Someone looking for a quick dd that plans on keeping it stock, the GTI is easily the better choice. I've said this time and time again. Quieter, better interior, torquier, dsg option.
#2: I'm sorry, but I'm not sure where you're getting this $600 number from. You're cherry picking numbers here in an attempt to give the GTI an advantage. A budget build on a Si is definitely bolt ons. For the same price someone who buys a brand new GTI + stage 1 tune, someone can have a full bolt on Si that will be faster.
#3 There aren't lines drawn for stages in the Honda world like there are in the world of turbos. You either have simple bolt ons, forced induction, or a cammed all motor build. The latter two are exponentially more expensive than the first option.
#4 and #5 Full supercharged setup good for 300whp can be had for less than $3000. A turbo setup can be had for $5 or 6k and will be good for 12s on street tires. What does it take to get a GTI in the 12s?
Any way you look at it, it's simple to make power on either car. If you want a car that has the potential to be fast, buy a Honda. Because I can't say I've ever come across a fast GTI :laugh: Again, if you're on a budget, or worried about spending money, you shouldn't be modding cars to begin with.
All joking aside, I've mentioned multiple times why I'm even on this forum to begin with. If you've ever read any of my posts, you'd know I'm far from a Honda fan boy, and that I actually like and respect the GTI.
Exactly. It's idiotic, to say the least.
Now we can talk simplicity, if someone wants. Of course it's easier to throw a tune on a F/I engine as opposed to having to swap multiple parts out for a i/h/e/.
There are definitely Stage 2 GTIs that will easily beat bolt on SIs. There are always so many variables that differ, there will never be definite results one way or the other.
driver, quality of parts, tune, weight, etc will always come into play.
That's why you turbo the N/A and walk away from the factory turbo car both literally and in terms of power per dollar :thumbsup:
HP is TQ. Which part of short gearing and more revs isn't registering? After idle to 4k in first gear only any and all tq deficiency is negated by the Si gearing and redline.
400hp Si > 400hp GTI
Thats the Simple enough answer. What's not simple is actually getting the GTI to 400hp. Its not an Si where you can just throw a turbo on a 100% otherwise stock car and get 450whp.
idk i think you're just talking man. you sound like you're speculating. but in general si mods are cheaper than gti mods. and youre budget modding plan isn't ideal at all. you're missing a lot of supporting mods. that reminds me of a guy that asked about going k04 with apr's stock downpipe file. yeah you can do it, but it doesnt make sense. your motor mounts will fail, you'll spin your wheels, etc. if that's how you mod then go for it but it's not realistic.
and when you say most people put less than $1000 in their car who are you talking about. not on this or any other car forum. if you mean joe on the street with altezza lights and wheels from sears then you can't be serious comparing the two. a tune and coils will put you at $1k+ even with your "budget" setup.
iwannagofast
Not a Newbie
Plus just to add, why does a budget set-up have to be $600 or just a grand. Spend $5000 on a budget set-up for each of these cars and the civic will most likely smoke the GTI.
mattdibart
Go Kart Champion
I don't think MSRP should be part of this because you aren't solely paying for an engine when buying a car, you pay for the whole package. There are many things that come on a GTI that bump up the price that has nothing to do performance wise. Just because it's a VW you are paying a premium.
Also if I am not mistaken don't K04 GTIs hit 12s? You can K04 a git for less then 5k-6k.
When someone is arguing performance for your dollar, MSRP absolutely should be taken into consideration.
But like I've said several times, I think it's a stupid argument regardless.
I agree the GTI definitely has some worthwhile features/quality that bump up the price.
And I really am unsure what ko4 GTIs typically run. I'm sure it is possible to get them into the 12s. But to do it I'm sure the cost is closer to 5 or 6k then you think.
excelevant
Go Kart Champion
As far as going around corners, you also have to factor in that a GTI requires another ~$2k for an LSD
Which the Si comes with... at $1500 less MSRP
Which the Si comes with... at $1500 less MSRP
XGC75
Go Kart Champion
K04 GTI with IC and downpipe will do 12.6's. 12.4's with DSG. With a really aggressive file, Uni has done an 11.8-- with this same, generally minimal k04 setup.
butchered by autocucumber
mattdibart
Go Kart Champion
If you are looking at stock cars yes but when it comes to modding cars when I hear dollar for performance I think about how much is it going to cost to make my car have x amount more power, regardless of how much it started with. I do see where you are coming from though.
What you NEED for a K04 setup, unless I'm mistaken, is:
K04 with tune: lets say $2500
DP: $500 ( can get away with a $150 ebay DP just fine as well)
Intake: $300 (Carbonio seems to be the most popular so lets go with that)
clutch - $1000 (stock fly wheel, or you could spend $350 on a drop in disk which is holding up on someone's K04 setup on this forum iirc.)
Unless I am mistaken that is all you actually NEED.
Sure there are many recommended parts such as a bigger intercooler, suspension upgrades, BBK etc.
Obviously that's pricing if you do the install yourself and those are all brand new parts.
greasyginzo
Go Kart Champion
This was like 10 years ago or something right when it came out if I remember right it was the one of it's kind at the time