snobrdrdan
former GTI owner
What do you mean?
It's a larger diameter....the stock one is tiny (actually) inside the pipe. I wish I could snap a picture, but it's hard to tell or even get a picture of the inside.
6
A pair of simple engine mods
- Thread starter 2010GTI4me
- Start date
What do you mean?
It's a larger diameter....the stock one is tiny (actually) inside the pipe. I wish I could snap a picture, but it's hard to tell or even get a picture of the inside.
snobrdrdan
former GTI owner
I never said they had better performance....I don't know where you got that from.
The AWE and Neuspeed TDP's are nearly identical (except that AWE reuses the stock rubber coupler/hose, which is kind of small)....but they'll give the same performance.
For the intercooler pipe, IMO, I think the BSH is kind of ugly....that's all I said.
If you ever think you're going to do water/meth then the BSH pipe is for you. I know I won't.
As for the DV relocate....again....it's not needed on this car (IMO). Buy a "D" diverter valve for $80 SHIPPED from ECS tuning & you'll never have an issue.
So, yeah, the BSH one offers more options/flexibility. I just didn't need those options.
And yes the Neuspeed versions are pricey. I got them from NAMotorsports.net last year during a sale (with a coupon) and bought them at the same time for my MKV TSI.
They had just been introduced to the market as well & the only ones available at the time
grambles423
Automotive Engineer
Larger diameter means larger volume. If the volumetric flow rate stays the same the velocity of the "fluid" moving through this control volume will decrease causing inhibition in performance and more turbo lag. I think theres some other factors besides bigger diameter that are in play here.
This would be great on a chipped car because then, you are increasing the amount of air flowing through the tube. There comes a point where the stock pancake pipe will actually inhibit the velocity of the air into the intercooler.
+1 (as an engineer) for science. I'd very much like to know what that breakover point is and what configuration changes our engines would need to undergo before encountering it. i.e. At what point in the series of commonly available engine modifications does the stock part become constrained and this replacement part make a measurable difference. Further, what is the magnitude and nature of that change?
Which leads me to wonder... would any manufacturers reveal what assumptions they were operating under when designing these parts? What other non-OEM parts were involved? I assume they don't have the ability to model the entire system, like VAG can, but what models did they use? That's all probably proprietary, but inquiring minds want to know.
More data is more better, and I hope I never hear, "trial and error."
grambles423
Automotive Engineer
I believe you answer is a simple one to solve. With basic fluid calculations, you can only have so much volume before you start producing turbulent flow that would hinder the performance, thus need to expand the volume of entry pipes to accommodate increased velocities. So.....its really a hit or miss. Most companies would probably start with a baseline test with Stage 1 software. Then from there:
Trial and Error tests to see what standard of tubing works best to maximize performance. I assume there are a group of individuals (though not truly seasoned like the German VAG engineers) that are working with flow characteristics and CAD modeling to accommodate this.
So your breakover point would be the moment you step outside of the Volkswagen realm and enter into the tuning realm.
Which leads me to wonder... would any manufacturers reveal what assumptions they were operating under when designing these parts? What other non-OEM parts were involved? I assume they don't have the ability to model the entire system, like VAG can, but what models did they use? That's all probably proprietary, but inquiring minds want to know.
More data is more better, and I hope I never hear, "trial and error."
I wonder if they use the same assumptions as all the crazy ricer individuals do.....Bigger pipes mean more flow or metals always out perform plastics.
Anyone who can do the turtorials in simple CAD software like solidworks, ANSYS, or even Autocad can create baseline data to work with. Its not quality engineering. I have seen the efforts of some companies (they shall not be named), and they truly seem abysmal and desperate to get a product out there for the sake of making money. I've seen other companies (again...no names) to produced AMAZING, pricey, quality products that reflect the effort to really understand the learning curve beyond what the vehicle can do stock. And even the effort to work with Volkswagen to find out more information shows the quality as well.
VAG engineers probably sit in a room all day trying to design an engine with amazing stock numbers however, great for the casual driver. They normally dont focus on the tuning/aftermarket world that is beyond what their company provides. This is where the engineering world meets the tuning world.
This also is why most European vehicles have expensive aftermarket parts, because there is a lot of engineering that needs to be done. Just slapping on a hose, calling it a cold air intake, is just a joke many of the Japanese tuners do.
ramble on.....ramble on............................ramble ramble ramble
Don't forget that a big factor for the German engineers is cost. Mandrel bending that tube and welding on the flanges is a LOT more expensive than the 2 part, single pull tool (well, 2 tools). Saving a few pennies on a part can make a HUGE difference in overall profit - so increasing possible flow rates through the tube above the normal max flow rates is wasted money from their view. Not so with the aftermarket guys - they don't have the volumes to support the (50-100k++) tooling costs for the injection molding tools, so metal makes a lot more sense for them.
Not only that, but the weight you save with the plastic part can help a lot in terms of fuel efficiency, handling, and crash testing. Sure, it's not a lot of weight by itself, but take 400 other parts you save a couple hundred grams on and add those up too...
Keeping the pipe oblong rather than round saves a significant amount of plastic if structural rigidity isn't a large concern in one direction (which, for this part, it appears it's not), as long as the minimum flow numbers are reached.
As for doing the equations here, it shouldn't be too hard to find out mass flow - heck, there's a lovely MAF sensor right upstream for us Anybody want to hook up a vag-com and pull some numbers? While it would be quite hard to replicate the exact circumstances this pipe will encounter (turbulence or nonlinear motion of the air flowing in, downstream effects, etc.), we could run some simple simulations to get an idea what's goign on here, and what the mass-flow laminar flow-turbulent flow numbers would be.
Not only that, but the weight you save with the plastic part can help a lot in terms of fuel efficiency, handling, and crash testing. Sure, it's not a lot of weight by itself, but take 400 other parts you save a couple hundred grams on and add those up too...
Keeping the pipe oblong rather than round saves a significant amount of plastic if structural rigidity isn't a large concern in one direction (which, for this part, it appears it's not), as long as the minimum flow numbers are reached.
As for doing the equations here, it shouldn't be too hard to find out mass flow - heck, there's a lovely MAF sensor right upstream for us
Anybody want to hook up a vag-com and pull some numbers? While it would be quite hard to replicate the exact circumstances this pipe will encounter (turbulence or nonlinear motion of the air flowing in, downstream effects, etc.), we could run some simple simulations to get an idea what's goign on here, and what the mass-flow laminar flow-turbulent flow numbers would be.I like the looks of the BSH part, but it's not like it's a really visible part any way
This was in the context of someone saying that BSH just released their TB pipe, and you responded with that. As I read it again, I suppose you were saying that the Neuspeed was just a performance part, not comparing the 2 vendors parts. Anyways, just a mis-interpretation of what you were trying to say.
In either case, I think both parts are good upgrades and plan to do them both eventually.
DV
Guys, stock DVs have been known to break down by 12K mileage or even as soon as 6 months.
But I am confused on the fact,
1) Stock DV is electronically controlled so the chances of it failing mechanically is less
whereas
2) DV from companies like Forge are much stronger in material but is mechanically activated so, there is some need for maintenance (like lubrication etc).
Hope you guys can share some light.
Cheers.
Guys, stock DVs have been known to break down by 12K mileage or even as soon as 6 months.
But I am confused on the fact,
1) Stock DV is electronically controlled so the chances of it failing mechanically is less
whereas
2) DV from companies like Forge are much stronger in material but is mechanically activated so, there is some need for maintenance (like lubrication etc).
Hope you guys can share some light.
Cheers.
snobrdrdan
former GTI owner
I don't know the science man....I'm just saying it works. And it works well on a chipped car, especially, because you're pushing more air with the extra boost
Also.....another reason why the stock pipe is pancaked IMO.....IF VW drops the engine in from the top at the factory....it clears the frame. (I don't know how they manufacture the car though)
With the larger pipe....it kind of swings out past the frame, and then the engine couldn't be dropped in.
That's my extra take on it
snobrdrdan
former GTI owner
I like the looks of the BSH part, but it's not like it's a really visible part any way
This was in the context of someone saying that BSH just released their TB pipe, and you responded with that. As I read it again, I suppose you were saying that the Neuspeed was just a performance part, not comparing the 2 vendors parts. Anyways, just a mis-interpretation of what you were trying to say.
In either case, I think both parts are good upgrades and plan to do them both eventually.
I meant Neuspeed versus the Tiguan pipe...sorry man
Neuspeed (or BSH) offered more performance over the Tiguan pipe's OEM looks is what I meant though