Aftermarket stereo setup: 2013 GTI

[Johnny Two Tone]

Can't we all just get along!? :yikes:

 

[phd-12v]

For being such an expert you don't read very carefully, maybe if you lowered your nose a bit you could make out the words more clearly. The issue was the limitation in crossover frequency, not slope. And really, there's no difference between a 1k hi-pass filter and a 4k hi-pass filter? News to me.

ohhhhhhhhhhh and 1 other thing...... please show me (mr big shot) where i said that there is no difference between a 1k and 4k hi pass???

weird, i cant find that anywhere in my post........... please enlighten me how you came up with that??

 

[phd-12v]

Can't we all just get along!? :yikes:

im trying....... but damn its hard somedays to not want to internet spank someone...............

edit: here ill throw you another bone chanthing, i run my "tweeters" from just under 800hz and up................... figure that one out.

 

[quality_sound]

Well, look at it this way: Another poster here (quality_sound) who insists that he's "been in the business" for X years (figuratively speaking) also says that generally similar amps have no noticeable sound quality difference (I agree with him), so features are exactly what should make or break their purchase.

Then again I've never used an amp itself to cross anything over, so it's a non-issue for me, personally. Although, if you go to DIYMA.com and read some of the official thread for the Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty.3 every other person complains about the lack of the ability to have different slopes on each end of the band pass (RF says they are correcting this issue with the next software release). So, for a lot of people the small details can be deal breakers.

I got into car audio in 1991 and did it as a career until I enlisted in 2002. After that it was side-jobs and helping with some manufacturers demo cars.

The reason you'd want different slope capability is because different mounting positions will cause the roll-off to differ. Having the ability to use different slopes will let you have matching acoustic slopes at the listening position.

 

[chanthing]

-Sometimes car audio people need to get over themselves. "Weeelll, you see my 32-bit floating point burr brown DAC simply is the bee's knees. Now listen while I play my favorite MP3s on it... BT'd from my iPhone"

One of the really cool potential features of the Mosconi DSP is the ability to stream lossless audio files via bluetooth and use the DAC converter on the processor. Not only does this avoid the extraneous D to A and then back to D steps at the beginning of the signal chain, but you're starting with a non-compressed source. And you can link the analog output channels such that the 6to8 will use the level of the analog signal to control the volume, so you can use the HU's volume control for the digital signal. Unfortunately, you need to have the dual optical input card and a special bluetooth interface installed on the 6to8, which is a pricey proposition.

I've never done any serious A-B comparisons of FLAC to a good-quality MP3 (e.g. 320 kbps VBR). But I'm not serious enough about SQ in my car to worry about the difference. Which is probably just another way of saying I'm okay with the RCD-510. Any deficiencies in its audio quality don't justify giving up all the integration features or the hassle of recreating those features with an aftermarket HU. Strictly IMHO of course.

 

[mouettus]

Any deficiencies in its audio quality don't justify giving up all the integration features or the hassle of recreating those features with an aftermarket HU. Strictly IMHO of course.

Exactly my point and why I never gave up on the unit. It's a compromise between features/oem integration and SQ.

 

[Johnny Two Tone]

I got into car audio in 1991 and did it as a career until I enlisted in 2002. After that it was side-jobs and helping with some manufacturers demo cars.

Ya, that's what I meant. Both phd_12v and yourself are avid car audio enthusiast, but you also have contrasting views on amps (or, so it would seem). I was just using you as an example of a knowledgeable source that would argue in favor of one amp over another because of something like slope settings.

Back on topic: I've tried every slope and x-over point under the sun for my front two-way and I simply prefer a 24db slope at at-least 4000hz (preferably 5000hz, really) with my particular tweets. But, that's just me - results may very.

 

[quality_sound]

Exactly my point and why I never gave up on the unit. It's a compromise between features/oem integration and SQ.

If you use a Pioneer unit you will lose nothing I can think of. Even the voice command button will work on the newest models as long as you have Siri.

 

[quality_sound]

Ya, that's what I meant. Both phd_12v and yourself are avid car audio enthusiast, but you also have contrasting views on amps (or, so it would seem). I was just using you as an example of a knowledgeable source that would argue in favor of one amp over another because of something like slope settings.

Back on topic: I've tried every slope and x-over point under the sun for my front two-way and I simply prefer a 24db slope at at-least 4000hz (preferably 5000hz, really) with my particular tweets. But, that's just me - results may very.

Ah, gotcha gotcha to be fair, Jason isn't wrong. Amps DO sound different because almost all manufacturers add things to the chain that affect the sound. Crossovers, EQs, gain controls, etc. that said, even with all of those things altering the signal the distortion in the speakers and clipping distortion will overshadow these and, in some cases, is what people hear when they say an amp sounds different. Most times they're hearing differences in level.

MY next amps will have all of that bypassed and I mean ALL of it. Even the gain control. They will be pure gain blocks.

I can't wait.

 

[phd-12v]

exactly, and before anyone throws out the Richard Clark amp test, let me be the first to tell you under the parameters of the test (gotta read that for a good laugh one day) all amplifiers technically should sound the same................ all their job is to do, is to amplify the input signal......thats it. Built in crossover networks and dsp controls can change the original signal to a point of being able to hear small nuances differently.

I just tend to do everything outboard, either building my own crossover networks (like we used to do in the early 90's, because damn if it doesnt still work good) or i can always grab some audiocontrol 24xs's and start linking them together........because damn if that doesnt work awesome too.............. most of the cars i did or built were all active....not passive. Unless it wasnt a true sq car. If we talking about 1200-2500 dollar sound systems, then this is a mute point. I had over 7000 invested in my previous gti, and had 6 speakers total. And that was equipment price, not including install and time and asthetic things. Oh wiring for the sytem was in the 1 grand area, just for wiring.

 

[chanthing]

exactly, and before anyone throws out the Richard Clark amp test, let me be the first to tell you under the parameters of the test (gotta read that for a good laugh one day) all amplifiers technically should sound the same................ all their job is to do, is to amplify the input signal......thats it. Built in crossover networks and dsp controls can change the original signal to a point of being able to hear small nuances differently.

Another point I think is relevant about the way an amp "sounds" is the ability of the amp to reliably produce power for peaks. My old Kenwood Model 600 (sorry, my history is in Hi-Fi, not auto) weighed almost 75 pounds, mostly because of the major duty power supplies (one per channel). It really was like two monoblocks in a single chassis. And imho, it sounded better than most of the other integrated amps of that era. As long as you left it flat. It's not how loud it plays, it's how it plays loud.

I just tend to do everything outboard, either building my own crossover networks (like we used to do in the early 90's, because damn if it doesnt still work good) or i can always grab some audiocontrol 24xs's and start linking them together........because damn if that doesnt work awesome too.............. most of the cars i did or built were all active....not passive. Unless it wasnt a true sq car. If we talking about 1200-2500 dollar sound systems, then this is a mute point. I had over 7000 invested in my previous gti, and had 6 speakers total. And that was equipment price, not including install and time and asthetic things. Oh wiring for the sytem was in the 1 grand area, just for wiring.

I'm sincerely curious about what constitutes an outboard active crossover. Being a newbie, I'm used to seeing either passive crossovers with capacitors for high pass filters and windings for low pass, or the circuits built into the amps, or the digital processing in something like the 6to8 or similar.

BTW, in answer to your quiz about your "tweeter", I'd guess you're running a 3" full range driver. No idea what brand though. Fountek? Tang Band? Hybrid Audio Legatia? Where do you have it mounted? How do they avoid issues with beaming?

Also, BTW, I don't necessarily think the point is moot for a system that runs $2500. Yeah, of course I'd rather have the JL Audio, or the ARC, or the Mosconi amp, but I put budget towards a DSP because IMHO that'll have a more significant effect on the final result. Even the best amps are pretty much garbage in - garbage out, which is not to say that some might not always be leaning towards the garbage out part of the equation.

-- chanthing

(Consider this an apology for letting loose with a cranky mood that had nothing to do with car stereo. Getting laid off has that affect, even if I probably will end up making money on the deal. Too much stress.)

 

[phd-12v]

no matter what, no one wants to hear someone got laid off i am truly sorry for that, and hope that a better and bigger door will open for you soon. It is tough out there and hopefully you get something soon.

and the answer to my question is HLCD under the dash, which is why i can run it rediculously low. (discussing normal parameters with everyday cars)

sound is always going to be subjective to everyone.......... over the many years of IASCA competeing and judging, i found many that were totally biased against certain positions of speakers or certain equipment. i saw it myself, and when i did sound judging i had to remmeber to make sure i did sound before install judging. Really there were a couple of vehicles that really surprised me especially once i saw the install.

Also aurgueing about car audio isnt necessarily fun for me at all, honestly ive been down this road way to many times in the past. All i can do is give you my insights into certain aspects of it, and hopefully be able to make people think about the install and design.
And maybe have someone (even just one) learn something from the arguement, then it is worthwhile.

My plan and someone elses plan could be 2 extreme different ways of doing things, but could both end up with the same common outcome. doesnt make either way wrong.

Hope you have a better day......worse case scenario you can always maybe help out at your local car stereo shop(during the searching process)??? Since your in Philly i know a ton of shops in that area...... literally almost all of them. I still am working in the industry, just on the manufacturing side.

 

[chanthing]

no matter what, no one wants to hear someone got laid off i am truly sorry for that, and hope that a better and bigger door will open for you soon. It is tough out there and hopefully you get something soon.

Thanks man, it's gonna be fine. Bumps in the road.

Also aurgueing about car audio isnt necessarily fun for me at all, honestly ive been down this road way to many times in the past. All i can do is give you my insights into certain aspects of it, and hopefully be able to make people think about the install and design.
And maybe have someone (even just one) learn something from the arguement, then it is worthwhile.
.

Speaking only for myself, a big part of it is that I know how much I don't know and that can be intimidating. I have analytical skills and experience, so I can understand it on the chalkboard, but when it comes to actual practice, hey, I'm a virgin, so of course I'm jumpy.

Who knows, maybe I will go hang around some shops, just to get out of my head a bit.

But for now, I gotta go brave the cold and try and get some progress made on this build. See, free time is a good thing.

Later,

-- chanthing

 

[Blaylock1988]

Here's a couple pics of the HU installed with the Enfig bits. It looks pretty clean, I think.

I've been working on equalization and speaker balancing like crazy, and think I've finally got it sounding pretty nice. Thanks to everyone who commented.

That Enfig dash kit looks really good. I am going to replace my Metra kit with that, thanks for the info!

 

[Philimon]

I am already impatient on waiting for the SEAS tweeters to come back in stock. So now I am looking at this aluminum model SEAS. The dimensions are the same, and measures pretty similar. Sound idea?

SEAS Prestige 27TFFNC/G (H1396) 1" Textile Dome Tweeter:

SEAS Prestige 27TAFNC/G (H1397) 1" Aluminum Dome Tweeter

The second graph has a little more recessed mid range, but it also doesn't have that small peak at 10kHz, making the valley seem less deep...? Also, the crossover will be set at 4kHz utilizing a 12db slope. Does that mean there will be a dip in the freq there, so then should I get the first SEAS option because its a couple db louder at 4kHz? The highest crossover point selectable on the amp is 4kHz. I could return it, and get the 4-channel version which is more tunable and nearly twice as powerful (70WPC vs 125WPC). The problem I have with that is I'll have to wait a bit longer for the return/purchase process, but I guess I'll wait a bit longer if you guys think its a good idea.

EDIT: There is also the LPG 26NA (aluminum), which I'd rather go with over the SEAS aluminum due to shallower size and already one recommendation I read preferring it over the SEAS.

EDIT: I found the SEAS non-aluminums at MeniscusAudio. Ordering now.