vdubpwr
Ready to race!
then imagine what a k04 would do to an ms3 lol
6
Modded MS3 vs. Accord 6spd
- Thread starter 3.sl06MT
- Start date
then imagine what a k04 would do to an ms3 lol
MKV727
Go Kart Champion
I'm clearly a VW loyalist but there are some inaccuracies here that I feel compelled to clear up.
MS3 > MK6, mod for mod assuming both cars are in good health with equal drivers. The extra displacement and their K04 outdoes a 2.0L with the door knob size IHI.
FSI stage 2 > TSI stage 1, I've done this personally. The TSI/FSI arent far apart mod for mod aren't that far apart (2-4bhp)... In fact the FSI has a better upper RPM/top end pull due to its slightly larger turbo.
TSI stage 1 > FSI stage 1
TSI stage 2 > FSI stage 2
FSI stage 2+ > TSI stage 2, according to APR's own numbers as well as some of the other big tuners. When taking the fueling out of the equation the FSI has a higher limit on the OEM turbo than the TSI with the IHI. The TSI has the FSI in every other aspect except for this scenario. When using a K04 or larger turbo Unitronic & GIAC list the TSI 10bhp greater. The compression, timing chain and intake manifold changes do make a difference.
Regarding racing the Accord IMO, looking at his 102-103 trap he's definitely beatable. I know a couple MKV/MKVI guys that are local and do a 105+ mph trap (one of my buddies did a 13.3 @ 107 on an FSI stage 2+). A properly running FSI stage 2 should be a drivers race with a car that has a 102mph trap but a TSI stage 2 or FSI stage 2+ should get it by atleast 1 or 2 cars. Get traction, start at 10-20mph and stop the race at 110mph and the torque should be enough to take the Accord out of the race.
EDIT: FWIW, in my experience a MK6 stage 2 > MKV stage 2 or stage 2+. I got lucky and got the best configuration (2dr, 6mt, no options, well maintained w/ less than 50k) but most of the MKV's are unbelievably heavy with 4dr, high miles, DSG, leather, sunroof, etc... The MK6 is roughly 50lbs lighter with comparable models, better shape and with less miles so they'll normally get the win even if the FSI is capable of an extra 6-7bhp.
MKV727
Go Kart Champion
I don't think you're lying, but an APR stage 2 FSI on the 100 octane file is pretty damn fast. It's 270bhp as a plain jane set up on 93 octane with a Carbonio and a catted DP. Run a decat set up and a VWR air intake or a modified Carbonio and it's a couple bhp quicker.
From dyno charts I've seen on the web and from what APR has told me the difference from stage 2 to stage 2 100 octane is 10-12whp and if you're using WMI to run the 100 octane file it's a 12-15whp jump at the wheels.
There had to be something wrong with the driver or it's just a slow car. A solid stage 2 FSI in a 6mt 2dr is a 102-103mph trap. Now add 10-15whp and 20-30 torques and it's a quick car for what it is.
vdubpwr
Ready to race!
guys i beat a totally modded ms3 with revo stage 2 and dp only! come on real world racing and dyno numbers are two different things...
this guy had intercooler, intake, single side exhaust, cobb tuned and god knows what else... and this is an OLD video ive slayed 3 more ms3s since then and added a couple things to my set up.
i repeat, this is revo stage 2 and DP only!
http://youtu.be/X1PyJmVfzho
this guy had intercooler, intake, single side exhaust, cobb tuned and god knows what else... and this is an OLD video ive slayed 3 more ms3s since then and added a couple things to my set up.
i repeat, this is revo stage 2 and DP only!
http://youtu.be/X1PyJmVfzho
Great post. Lots of good information in there. The FSI Stage 2 on 100oct tune file/meth that I ran was a 2dr.
Usually the MKVs trapping 105+ have the WGA though, no? A 'normal' bolt on/S2/FMIC GTI isn't trapping 105+...I hope to trap 104 after the new setup, and 105 on my 225/45 tires untuned (current 215/55's are 1.3" taller than my previous tires, effectively elongating my gears a bit). I will say though, when I ran that GTI I was on stock size tires.
True. Like I said he did beat me up to 95mph, but after 95 I pulled. I wasn't walking him, but it was a relatively steady pull after 95mph.
It's not all about trap speeds. Like I said, the video where I'm running 2 RSX's, the camera car trapped consistent 102-103 on a good weather night. I trapped consistent 101.x-102 on a more humid night, but pulled in 4th gear in the vid as you can see. A solid 2 cars or so at 130. I'm assuming even a Stage 2 car runs out of steam a bit north of 105ish where my car still pulls fairly strong. A 40 roll against a Stage 2 FSI/TSI, etc would be a good run for sure. I think I'd get creeped on a bit before 100 but after 100 I think I'd come back. My buddy and I are installing a new intake manifold/TB setup tomorrow, can't wait
:thumbup:Nice run. As I said, driver is really important on the MS3 and shifting above 6K really hampers the performance of the car. I'm not saying he was a bad driver, but it seems really odd you pulled him considering they make a good bit more power, especially once tuned. But good kill nonetheless
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MKV727
Go Kart Champion
Great post. Lots of good information in there. The FSI Stage 2 on 100oct tune file/meth that I ran was a 2dr.
Usually the MKVs trapping 105+ have the WGA though, no? A 'normal' bolt on/S2/FMIC GTI isn't trapping 105+...I hope to trap 104 after the new setup, and 105 on my 225/45 tires untuned (current 215/55's are 1.3" taller than my previous tires, effectively elongating my gears a bit). I will say though, when I ran that GTI I was on stock size tires.
True. Like I said he did beat me up to 95mph, but after 95 I pulled. I wasn't walking him, but it was a relatively steady pull after 95mph.
It's not all about trap speeds. Like I said, the video where I'm running 2 RSX's, the camera car trapped consistent 102-103 on a good weather night. I trapped consistent 101.x-102 on a more humid night, but pulled in 4th gear in the vid as you can see. A solid 2 cars or so at 130. I'm assuming even a Stage 2 car runs out of steam a bit north of 105ish where my car still pulls fairly strong. A 40 roll against a Stage 2 FSI/TSI, etc would be a good run for sure. I think I'd get creeped on a bit before 100 but after 100 I think I'd come back. My buddy and I are installing a new intake manifold/TB setup tomorrow, can't wait
Nice run. As I said, driver is really important on the MS3 and shifting above 6K really hampers the performance of the car. I'm not saying he was a bad driver, but it seems really odd you pulled him considering they make a good bit more power, especially once tuned. But good kill nonetheless
It would make sense for the stage 2 100 octane car to pull you to 95 and you creep afterwards. These cars are terrible once they shift into 5th gear.
It doesn't take a WGA to get to 105mph. I know somebody on Golfmkv that did 105.9 mph on APR stage 2+ with a stock BW K03. He had catless DP, BSH FMIC, air intake, etc... He switched to Revo with the SPS+ and ran a Forge WGA and then got the 107.x mph trap.
Just on my set up with the mods in my sig I'll run my friends C5 from a 40 roll with me in 3rd and him in second and only lose 3 cars to 110mph. If how you beat VW's in the past is indicative of how you'd run me apparently you're LS1 fast? I doubt that and I'm not putting down your car, it's impressive for an NA Honda set up. I believe you should get a better platform though (I posted that on Golfmkv).
From my experience, on the street anything can happen. My friends C5 barely edged a full exhaust, tuned and intake EVO 8 MR so I know his car is fast. I've also noticed some cars run well and some don't. I think a lot of it has to do with miles, maintenance, driver and the amount of options the car has affecting the weight. As an average though stage 2 FSI =101-103mph, stage 2 TSI/stage 2+ FSI = 104-107mph. Some cars don't get anywhere near those traps but the good drivers in the right cars will always get in that range.
As far as trap speed not meaning everything, it does. From a roll it's the biggest indicator of what's going to happen. If its from a stop, totally different story.
FWIW, you running MKV/MKVI's from a 40 does not give you a good idea of how the car runs. It takes away the GTI's advantage and favors your set up. If the stage 2 100 octane car had proper summer tires or DRs and you ran a 20 you would've never caught him before 110-120mph.
It's a moot point arguing my point because I'll never get the opportunity to run you from Florida but I figured I'd tell you what I've personally seen down here.
My car isn't on an LS1 level...I consider myself a good driver though for sure. I think on my current setup a Stage 2 car would be a good run. At some point me and RCode are going to attempt some runs and I'll ask my friend to borrow his GoPro. He's Stage 1. By the time we run though me may be Stage 2 hahah (not saying it's you holding it up man, it's me). Should be nice to get it on video, especially since I've wanted to run an MK6.
I did run what the driver said was a Stage 2 1.8t Jetta the other day. He honked 3x and took off from a 40 which I wasn't ready for. I then got behind him and downshifted into 2nd around 50. He was a good 1.5-2 cars ahead of me when we started and got the hit as well. I ended up passing him around 90 and pulling about a car to 100. He had a passenger (~150lbs) but also got the hit. If we would've gotten an even start based on what happened, I'd say I would've put 3 cars on him from 40-100. After 100 I probably would've pulled another 2 cars easy to 120. Nice kids though, gave me the thumbs up and I returned them and we spoke for a minute. Honda/VW love haha. They were both very surprised
I did run what the driver said was a Stage 2 1.8t Jetta the other day. He honked 3x and took off from a 40 which I wasn't ready for. I then got behind him and downshifted into 2nd around 50. He was a good 1.5-2 cars ahead of me when we started and got the hit as well. I ended up passing him around 90 and pulling about a car to 100. He had a passenger (~150lbs) but also got the hit. If we would've gotten an even start based on what happened, I'd say I would've put 3 cars on him from 40-100. After 100 I probably would've pulled another 2 cars easy to 120. Nice kids though, gave me the thumbs up and I returned them and we spoke for a minute. Honda/VW love haha. They were both very surprised
MKV727
Go Kart Champion
My car isn't on an LS1 level...I consider myself a good driver though for sure. I think on my current setup a Stage 2 car would be a good run. At some point me and RCode are going to attempt some runs and I'll ask my friend to borrow his GoPro. He's Stage 1. By the time we run though me may be Stage 2 hahah (not saying it's you holding it up man, it's me). Should be nice to get it on video, especially since I've wanted to run an MK6.
I did run what the driver said was a Stage 2 1.8t Jetta the other day. He honked 3x and took off from a 40 which I wasn't ready for. I then got behind him and downshifted into 2nd around 50. He was a good 1.5-2 cars ahead of me when we started and got the hit as well. I ended up passing him around 90 and pulling about a car to 100. He had a passenger (~150lbs) but also got the hit. If we would've gotten an even start based on what happened, I'd say I would've put 3 cars on him from 40-100. After 100 I probably would've pulled another 2 cars easy to 120. Nice kids though, gave me the thumbs up and I returned them and we spoke for a minute. Honda/VW love haha. They were both very surprised
The 1.8T is in another league, it's much slower. A stage 1 MK6 would beat a full bolt on balls out stage 2 1.8T. A K04 1.8T would most likely lose to a well done stage 2+ FSI. A stage 3 1.8T would probably get walked by a MK6 K04 car.
trd420
Go Kart Champion
yea i traped 105mph with only intake, downpipe, tune, on CA shitty 91oct.
and with same mods pulled a mk4 apr k04 by 3-4 cars
http://golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29634
reillyse
Go Kart Champion
Like i said b4 either in this thread or your same thread on golfmkv I have a buddy who has a first gen with intake, HPFP, bigger TMIC, TBE, and a custom E85/93 blend cobb tune and he definitely doesnt put down 320/350. He runs mid 13s@105. Not many stock turbo MS3s trapping higher than 106.
Here is the link again to their "official" 1/4 mile thread. Hell only 6 guys in the 12s.....lame for a car that has so much horsepower stock.
I absolutely wreck him at the drag strip and pull him easy from a roll.
MKV727
Go Kart Champion
yea i traped 105mph with only intake, downpipe, tune, on CA shitty 91oct.
and with same mods pulled a mk4 apr k04 by 3-4 cars
http://golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29634
You don't happen to live in Long Island do you? If so I know of an Accord that'd like to run you :lol:
I'm glad you decided to post in this thread because I'm sure there were quite a few people on the forum who thought I was stretching the truth with my 13 second @ 105mph+ claims. Those are some good times man, you got yourself a strong running car.
3.slo6mt I honestly think you're running into a bad couple of drivers, set ups or cars. I've personally never seen a simple intake, exhaust, tune RSX get over 101mph at the Bradenton 1/4 mile track. I've yet to actually have an NA Honda that can keep up within 2 cars on a 20-110mph roll. I'm mainly talking about 8th gen Si's and RSX's as I've never ran into a modded Accord.
I really think you're comparing apples to oranges with an NA 6 cylinder commuter sedan to turbocharged hot hatches. It's really dollar for dollar and modification to modification not a battle worth fighting. As a car enthusiast I look for a car that from the factory was designed to be "sporty" and has potential to go fast via displacement, FI or drivetrain/weight. RSXs/Si's are a PITA to go fast due to the fact they are not exactly light (like a CRX, eg hatch, etc..), have a small displacement motor and the K series were never designed for boost.
Instead of spending $1000+ on a IM and tune why not use it for a performance car? It's practically $100=1whp and even less torque or $600=30whp+ w/50 tq. Heck stage 2 is $300 DP = 12-15whp or getting an air intake at $299=6whp is DOUBLE the ratio of what you'll get with the IM and the tune.
You go to all of these different forums GOLFMKV/GOLFMK6/Mazdaspeed Forum and others I'm sure and they all tell you apples =/= oranges and that's why.
EDIT: I'm not being cheap with those mods, those prices are for decent parts. You could get a $180 PFlo, $160 DP and a $350 Revo tune on sale right now and get a much better dollar/hp ratio. I figured I'd keep it unbiased fair as I'm sure you buy good parts for your car.
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MKV727
Go Kart Champion
Damn, I'm no longer fearful of MS3's. I always assumed they were in a different league.