Ukraine: WAR Huh - What Is It Good For Absorootly Nothing

[uglybastard]

Seven year old lecture. Good info here.

interesting talk. good context around the situation as of 2015, not much has changed so still applicable.

 

[dtfd]

Seven year old lecture. Good info here.

I listened to the talk, great information here. Still relevant too, which only shows how little has changed.

One thing that did irk me, or rather was a blind spot for him is the fact that he looked at this solely from a "19th century" perspective, to steal his term. This is a great breakdown of the realpolitik view of Ukraine from the positions of power. The issue with looking at it that way, which is the way that America and Russia do look at it, is it that it requires completely ignoring what the people of Ukraine want, or accepting that Ukraine is a sovereign state. You can only consider Ukraine through the power politics view of things by treating it as nothing more than a trading card. He mentioned it in the beginning itself, even if the country isn't in unison on it, the majority of the population wanted EU membership. EU membership of Ukraine shouldn't be up to the Russians or the Americans it should be up to the Ukrainians.

Russia is fighting this war because of 19th century thinking. Ukraine is fighting this war to show that they're not just a trading card, they're a country and people.

 

[dtfd]

2012?

But that’s because most leadership don’t go to trial over underlings disobeying the ROE or Laws of Land Warfare.

My Lai was a sham. Heads should have rolled.

My Lai is the prime example of superpowers don't pay for war crimes, or even admit them.

 

[Sparky589]

I listened to the talk, great information here. Still relevant too, which only shows how little has changed.

One thing that did irk me, or rather was a blind spot for him is the fact that he looked at this solely from a "19th century" perspective, to steal his term. This is a great breakdown of the realpolitik view of Ukraine from the positions of power. The issue with looking at it that way, which is the way that America and Russia do look at it, is it that it requires completely ignoring what the people of Ukraine want, or accepting that Ukraine is a sovereign state. You can only consider Ukraine through the power politics view of things by treating it as nothing more than a trading card. He mentioned it in the beginning itself, even if the country isn't in unison on it, the majority of the population wanted EU membership. EU membership of Ukraine shouldn't be up to the Russians or the Americans it should be up to the Ukrainians.

Russia is fighting this war because of 19th century thinking. Ukraine is fighting this war to show that they're not just a trading card, they're a country and people.

^^^^^^^^^^^

That's been one major gripe of mine surrounding this narrative. It's valid to highlight how the expansion of NATO membership into the former Eastern Bloc has been seen as a borderline existential threat by Russia to its security, thus explaining their actions. Yet at the same time this expansion wasn't one of annexation, these former Soviet vassal states were the ones requesting NATO/EU membership as a matter of sovereign self-determination. The fall of the USSR could have represented a diplomatic reset in Russia's relationship with its neighbors, one based on mutual partnerships instead of domination. These countries know better than anyone else what it was like to live as a puppet for Russia. Their rational for seeking mutual defense and economic integration outside of Russia is only getting further validated by the day.

 

[golfdave]

^^^^^^^^^^^

That's been one major gripe of mine surrounding this narrative. It's valid to highlight how the expansion of NATO membership into the former Eastern Bloc has been seen as a borderline existential threat by Russia to its security, thus explaining their actions. Yet at the same time this expansion wasn't one of annexation, these former Soviet vassal states were the ones requesting NATO/EU membership as a matter of sovereign self-determination. The fall of the USSR could have represented a diplomatic reset in Russia's relationship with its neighbors, one based on mutual partnerships instead of domination. These countries know better than anyone else what it was like to live as a puppet for Russia. Their rational for seeking mutual defense and economic integration outside of Russia is only getting further validated by the day.

Agree...& worth quoting as its very simply put...

 

[golfdave]

Forte10 is back at it........this time a nice NATO border sweep...

 

[Corprin]

^^^^^^^^^^^

That's been one major gripe of mine surrounding this narrative. It's valid to highlight how the expansion of NATO membership into the former Eastern Bloc has been seen as a borderline existential threat by Russia to its security, thus explaining their actions. Yet at the same time this expansion wasn't one of annexation, these former Soviet vassal states were the ones requesting NATO/EU membership as a matter of sovereign self-determination. The fall of the USSR could have represented a diplomatic reset in Russia's relationship with its neighbors, one based on mutual partnerships instead of domination. These countries know better than anyone else what it was like to live as a puppet for Russia. Their rational for seeking mutual defense and economic integration outside of Russia is only getting further validated by the day.

Exactly my point earlier. This isn’t about what anybody but Ukraine wants.

They are proving by action as a government, military, and population that they are worthy of membership in EU/NATO. Imho

 

[Unreal1]

Exactly my point earlier. This isn’t about what anybody but Ukraine wants.

They are proving by action as a government, military, and population that they are worthy of membership in EU/NATO. Imho

How is a country with a neo nazi battalion worthy of being in NATO?

 

[Sparky589]

How is a country with a neo nazi battalion worthy of being in NATO?

If far right wing militias were grounds for NATO dismissal what the hell is the U.S doing in the alliance.

Ukraine is the only country in the history of the world outside of Israel to have a their prime minister and president both be jewish. If it really was a 'Nazi' state like Putin would have the useful idiots of the world believe, how in gods name did they get elected to those positions?

 

[uglybastard]

How is a country with a neo nazi battalion worthy of being in NATO?

Source?

 

[dtfd]

Source?

He saw it on a screen shot of a Twitter post. He's far too smart to believe what the media tells him. So smart that he's lapping up Russian propaganda.

Congratulations for being the most intelligent person in the thread unreal1. You're such a anti-conformist you've made yourself into a gullible clown.

 

[oddspyke]

Ok, so before we jump on the name calling train, let's address the allegation seriously. It took me all of 5 minutes on Google to find reputable sources (rueters, AP, NPR, etc.) with actual articles about neo Nazis in Ukraine that far predate the current mess. Like all good propaganda, the idea of a Nazi battalion contains a thread of truth, severely misrepresented. The battalion was a militia, not state sanctioned or sponsored, and the government recognized them as a problem and has been going out of it's way to deal with them.

 

[Unreal1]

If far right wing militias were grounds for NATO dismissal what the hell is the U.S doing in the alliance.

Ukraine is the only country in the history of the world outside of Israel to have a their prime minister and president both be jewish. If it really was a 'Nazi' state like Putin would have the useful idiots of the world believe, how in gods name did they get elected to those positions?

The Azov used to be a militia, but the military officially accepted them into the national guard after the war in Crimea. So they are an official part of the army.

 

[Unreal1]

Ok, so before we jump on the name calling train, let's address the allegation seriously. It took me all of 5 minutes on Google to find reputable sources (rueters, AP, NPR, etc.) with actual articles about neo Nazis in Ukraine that far predate the current mess. Like all good propaganda, the idea of a Nazi battalion contains a thread of truth, severely misrepresented. The battalion was a militia, not state sanctioned or sponsored, and the government recognized them as a problem and has been going out of it's way to deal with them.

They went out of their way to deal with them by making them an official part of the army.

 

[dtfd]

Ok, so before we jump on the name calling train, let's address the allegation seriously. It took me all of 5 minutes on Google to find reputable sources (rueters, AP, NPR, etc.) with actual articles about neo Nazis in Ukraine that far predate the current mess. Like all good propaganda, the idea of a Nazi battalion contains a thread of truth, severely misrepresented. The battalion was a militia, not state sanctioned or sponsored, and the government recognized them as a problem and has been going out of it's way to deal with them.

The Russians have been bringing up neo nazi since 2014, actually even earlier ever since the pro Russian leader was thrown out of office in Ukraine.

There's exactly the same amount of truth to the statement that neo nazis hold power in Ukraine as the following statement: the capital riot was planned by neo nazis and Republicans are all neo nazis.