Is VW really going to get away with it?...or has it already

[TAZZ1]

Well, not to beat a dead horse, but I think that the cam follower issue has seen some resurgence now that a significant number of 2+ tuned Rs are out on the roads. I do not wish to argue about the TSI vs FSI subject or which HPFP causes more wear, and not even on the topic of how often a cam follower check-up has to be made. After reading on and on and hearing the recent horror stories we thought belonged to the MK5 era, I think the pertinent questions that the VW community should focus around are:

Why should my wife, my 75 yr old dad, or myself have to change an internal part to keep a vw FSI running smooth ??? Why isn't it a VW maintenance item listed in the owners manual?????? Why isn't it part of VW's carefree maintenance program at 30k miles???

VW of course knows only too well the cam follower issue; it’s not a faulty batch of water pumps, or a bad mechatronic production year, it’s a conceptual flaw, a bad mechanism by design… and that is a very different thing. Like any manufacturer VW considered presumably two options:

1- Take internal corrective measures at "nominal" cost to minimize the occurrence of the issue without really solving it, like improving the coating, rely on the modified lobe design for the more powerful powerplants etc..., OR

2- Dig (much) deeper in its pockets on R&D, technical bulletins, recalls and production to "Fix" the issue in a more effective and definitive manner.

VW has clearly opted for the first option, and has done so while being careful not to openly "officialize" the seriousness or even the existence of the issue, in order to avoid an implied acknowledgement of liability.
I believe the reason is simply because until now VW has relied on two important facts being that the cam follower is a cheap part and its check-up / replacement is fairly easy; meaning that on a given population the ultra-majority of people will just opt to "accept and live with it", and the minority who will face catastrophic failures will just be collateral damage. Out of this minority some will see the failure occur outside their warranty period, some will be denied their warranty because of tuning and performance upgrades, and only the remaining few will make VW reach for its wallet.
So from a mathematical standpoint it makes no sense at all for VW to go through the hassle of a global definitive solution as it would be much cheaper to just opt for the first option

Indeed, VW's reliance on consumer behavior has proved right; it's been nearly 8 years that this issue has surfaced and we are all accepting to check and/or change our cam followers regularly, simply because it's cheap and easy.

Now the FSI is being de-commissioned and replaced with a TSI even on the R and other KO4 models, it will soon be a case closed for VW.

Thing is, I believe that as a community we still have a "winning case"; with a 3 year warranty scheme, 2013 R owners still have 2+ years of coverage, and where I live and in some other countries VW is even offering a 5 year warranty on the golf R, so there's is still time and there are still a lot of R owners out there who have paid serious cash and are rolling with a time-bomb in their engine bay, without mentioning the tons of pre-owned Rs that will be circulating on the car market for many years to come.
I think we can at least obtain VW to list the cam follower officially as a maintenance part and have the check-up and replacement performed free of charge during the warranty period. I do not know by which mechanism this would or could be achieved but I am sure there are plenty options in the US that can ultimately put some real pressure on VW….

I’m just throwing out an idea for discussion or at least contemplation, and what better place to start it than a VW forum. With the FSI it was the cam follower, who knows what we’ll have with the new TSI, no one can guarantee there won’t be a similar issue... What I know is that car companies learn from their past experience; and until now VW has learned that it can get away with a design flaw in an engine component,... I find this utterly unacceptable.

If you’re still reading at this point you might just think, yeah what for I’m just gonna pay 50 bucks on my next oil service spare 10 extra minutes and have the cam follower replaced (hell I would)… but that’s exactly what VW has been counting on to save its ass.

 

[thedude4bides]

The last three VW's were supposed to be my last, but like an abused spouse, I always go back:laugh:

In all seriousness, I agree, this is actually one if the few things that they should step up and own. If there is going to be a petition/demonstration/riot, sign me up. But in case they don't step up, I'll keep changing the follower.

 

[2013R]

That's one of the things that kept me from an R a year back.

 

[Austin_W]

Oh boy, where to start? I don't drive an R, but as a VW owner and consumer I think you really should cool your jets. Sure, it's shitty that there are design flaws within the models that are mass produced and marketed within VW and throughout the world, but acting like VW alone is trying to pull the blanket over you head is not a fair assessment.

There are reasons they originally designed it that way (production cost vs. potential failure risk.. etc.) , and from an economic standpoint, as long as it's something that is cheaper to repair than a massive world-wide recall, it will always be that way. It's surely not something that happens on every single unit. The potential risks are not life-threatening. I mean really, this is not some faulty 1970's Ford Pinto type death trap gas tank or something... It is a cheap, easily replaced part, and as long as the costs of replacing them and warrantying those that do fail is less than a recall it is really unreasonably to expect (much less compain) that VW is not doing something about it.

The second thing that comes to mind is the fact that when you take a car past its originally designed (stock) performance parameters and tune it or add anything that could possibly be proven to have directly affected the failure of a system (Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act), you ARE on the hook for the cost of that failure. No matter how large or small or expensive or affordable that thing may be. YOU, the consumer, take that risk when you mess with the finished and marketed product. Complaining about that is just wasted energy. Does the time enjoying a performance tuned car outweigh the risks? Usually. In my opinion they do, at least.

As a MK6 TSI owner, I'm really unhappy that the stock clutch was not designed to handle much past stock power output, and when my clutch began to slip, I knew I would be responsible for that because of the fact that I tuned my car. In my opinion, the time I enjoyed driving it tuned on stock clutch (10,000mi) is almost good enough for me. I assumed that risk. Here it has happened and I'm not crapping myself over it.


Besides, outside of warranty, do you really think VW is going to be reluctant to help you out on a STOCK follower failure that resulted in catastrophic engine failure? Maybe it's not covered 100% of the time, but a problem that VW knows about, on a STOCK and untouched model won't be a battle you can't win if they refuse, from a legal standpoint, based on accountability and prior knowledge. What reparations can you expect when you knowingly void the warranty?

My point in this rant is that the very moment you tune that car, you should expect to be responsible for any and ALL potential failures and damages, and if VW is reluctant to warranty a legitimate STOCk follower failure, you have enough fodder to leverage a claim.

Let's be real, it's a business, what would you do? What would be the most efficient use of your time and funds?

 

[TAZZ1]

Oh boy, where to start? I don't drive an R, but as a VW owner and consumer I think you really should cool your jets. Sure, it's shitty that there are design flaws within the models that are mass produced and marketed within VW and throughout the world, but acting like VW alone is trying to pull the blanket over you head is not a fair assessment.

There are reasons they originally designed it that way (production cost vs. potential failure risk.. etc.) , and from an economic standpoint, as long as it's something that is cheaper to repair than a massive world-wide recall, it will always be that way. It's surely not something that happens on every single unit. The potential risks are not life-threatening. I mean really, this is not some faulty 1970's Ford Pinto type death trap gas tank or something... It is a cheap, easily replaced part, and as long as the costs of replacing them and warrantying those that do fail is less than a recall it is really unreasonably to expect (much less compain) that VW is not doing something about it.

The second thing that comes to mind is the fact that when you take a car past its originally designed (stock) performance parameters and tune it or add anything that could possibly be proven to have directly affected the failure of a system (Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act), you ARE on the hook for the cost of that failure. No matter how large or small or expensive or affordable that thing may be. YOU, the consumer, take that risk when you mess with the finished and marketed product. Complaining about that is just wasted energy. Does the time enjoying a performance tuned car outweigh the risks? Usually. In my opinion they do, at least.

As a MK6 TSI owner, I'm really unhappy that the stock clutch was not designed to handle much past stock power output, and when my clutch began to slip, I knew I would be responsible for that because of the fact that I tuned my car. In my opinion, the time I enjoyed driving it tuned on stock clutch (10,000mi) is almost good enough for me. I assumed that risk. Here it has happened and I'm not crapping myself over it.


Besides, outside of warranty, do you really think VW is going to be reluctant to help you out on a STOCK follower failure that resulted in catastrophic engine failure? Maybe it's not covered 100% of the time, but a problem that VW knows about, on a STOCK and untouched model won't be a battle you can't win if they refuse, from a legal standpoint, based on accountability and prior knowledge. What reparations can you expect when you knowingly void the warranty?

My point in this rant is that the very moment you tune that car, you should expect to be responsible for any and ALL potential failures and damages, and if VW is reluctant to warranty a legitimate STOCk follower failure, you have enough fodder to leverage a claim.

Let's be real, it's a business, what would you do? What would be the most efficient use of your time and funds?

Oh I haven't been clear enough maybe.. reason why you did not know where to start, and went on completely missing the point while in fact there isn't anything to debate here.
I am certainly not trying to act like VW is pulling the blanket over my head, in fact personally I have not suffered from a cam follower failure, and will certainly not with my maintenance schedule.

I did not imply either that tuned cars should have their cam follower failures cared for by VW, I myself accepted the risk involved when tuning my car, and even told a fellow member that his cam follower failure was due to his HPFP upgrade. I also agree with you in everything else you said about economics, in fact I was saying the EXACT same thing. and of course if it was a life threatening issue, we wouldn't even be discussing it cause VW would have (been compelled to) solved it.

BUT, that does not preclude an action or at least an attempt to get VW to 1- List the cam follower as an official maintenance part and 2- have it checked and replaced if necessary free of charge during the warranty period (i.e. supposing your warranty is still valid, implying you don't drive a tuned R).

I think that just 1 and 2 are achievable, in a real business perspective.


Not taking my personal issue global, just throwing an idea on a global issue mate :thumbsup:

Cheers

 

[DBESTGTI1]

Imagine that, a bad design that hasn't changed is still a bad design?

FYI you can thank the government for the FSI cam follower problems. The EPA banned zinc zinc phosphate from engine oil and swore it wouldn't effect engine wear. Low and behold the final result was FSI's eating intake cam lobes, cam followers, and HPFP. Ever notice it's not much of an issue ROW? It's US oil.

 

[TAZZ1]

Imagine that, a bad design that hasn't changed is still a bad design?

Yup, and I don't think we can possibly get VW to go for option 2.
But, still being a bad design, and VW knowing about it, I think it qualifies for 1 -being listed by VW as a maintenance part and 2- being checked by VW and replaced under warranty when necessary, don't you?

And you are misinformed, it's a worldwide issue, happened to a friend here and heard many horror stories this side of the pond, the f*** thing just wears out.

 

[MBorVW]

Imagine that, a bad design that hasn't changed is still a bad design?

FYI you can thank the government for the FSI cam follower problems. The EPA banned zinc zinc phosphate from engine oil and swore it wouldn't effect engine wear. Low and behold the final result was FSI's eating intake cam lobes, cam followers, and HPFP. Ever notice it's not much of an issue ROW? It's US oil.

Things that make you go hmmmm?

Is there a way to import euro spec oil?

 

[Cadubya]

Yes, It's unfortunate, but VW doesn't think the cost of upset customers is more than the cost to re-design and fix it properly. It's business. You could always buy a Camry and not have to worry about things like this. My 2 cents. European cars are not known for reliability. I had to replace the entire cooling system on my E39 540i twice in 50k miles because the quality of the plastic was so poor it would become brittle and crack when exposed to the continuous heat of the engine bay. The car could vomit it's coolant at any moment. Did that suck? Yes! Did I still absolutely love that car? Yes! Would I buy another one? In a heartbeat!

 

[9V7W3]

Things that make you go hmmmm?

Is there a way to import euro spec oil?

Bump.. As a victim of the cam follower myself I am bias to side with OP here as I believe it should at LEAST be brought to the attention of someone spending 40K on a car with an engine that obviously had these potential problems in the past.

On the other side of the coin, I don't think we will ever win the modified/unmodified argument with VW considering the warranty itself probably states clearly somewhere that ANY mod to the engine and drivetrain gives them the upper hand when deciding warranty coverage. I do however think we should get all the stock R's together and see exactly how long their followers and water pumps are lasting and maybe we'll have a case.

I've also heard that the cam follower design which was used in many older cars when oil contained different additives that the government has now taken out of our oil here didn't used to be AS much of an issue. Can we find an oil to better protect ourselves? Not excusing us from regular checking/maintenance of course, just to protect our camshafts a little better which is the heart of our power monsters..

 

[Brick1]

I can confirm it is not just a US issue. I suffered a follower failure after modding my R. When i decided to go to rebuild my engine while installing a bigger turbo, i also installed the H2sport solution, and i now run engine oil with added zinc.

 

[TAZZ1]

Yes, It's unfortunate, but VW doesn't think the cost of upset customers is more than the cost to re-design and fix it properly. It's business. You could always buy a Camry and not have to worry about things like this. My 2 cents. European cars are not known for reliability. I had to replace the entire cooling system on my E39 540i twice in 50k miles because the quality of the plastic was so poor it would become brittle and crack when exposed to the continuous heat of the engine bay. The car could vomit it's coolant at any moment. Did that suck? Yes! Did I still absolutely love that car? Yes! Would I buy another one? In a heartbeat!

Again. I am not debating whether VW would or wouldn't go through a recall to fix the issue permanently, cause I, you and others all agree that it is unrealistic from a business perspective, simply by weighing the cost factors as we all said. I've edited my first post to make that even more clear and avoid unnecessary debates.
Also not criticizing the FSI or my R that I would re-buy in heart beat.

All that I am saying is we should get VW to do two things and two things only:

1- List the cam follower as a maintenance item on its service schedule;
2- As such, proceed with a conservatively scheduled check-up of the cam follower, and where necessary replace it free of charge if the vehicle is still covered by warranty.

If 1 and 2 are done, the cam follower issue would practically disappear on stock cars (unless you or your workshop deliberately ignore VW service schedule).

Modified cars would also benefit from it since the cam follower service (yes, done at your own expense here) would be official and in the general knowledge. I think that this knowledge would have avoided big $$$$ on many of you who got their cams chewed-up because you or your dealership thought the issue was "resolved", or because you are not that much into forums or simply not that much of a technical expert.

Hell I think VW itself would benefit from it! Think of it that way, today as we stand if you drive a bone stock R under warranty and your cam follower goes bust along with the engine, VW will have anyway to repair your engine under warranty. Now imagine that 1 and 2 are in force, then your workshop would've most probably seen that your follower was about to go bust by simply checking it as per the VW service schedule, and would have changed your follower under warranty... much cheaper than an engine!

Today, I just don't see any reasonable excuse for VW not to do it.

 

[TRUboost]

Imagine that, a bad design that hasn't changed is still a bad design?

FYI you can thank the government for the FSI cam follower problems. The EPA banned zinc zinc phosphate from engine oil and swore it wouldn't effect engine wear. Low and behold the final result was FSI's eating intake cam lobes, cam followers, and HPFP. Ever notice it's not much of an issue ROW? It's US oil.

From my understanding, zinc has only been removed from normal passenger vehicle oil to extend the life of catalytic converters.

Oil made for diesel engines (Shell Rotella) just to name one, has high zinc content. Since the majority of people who are worrying about this issue are tuned or out of warranty, using a non VW approved oil doesn't really matter, not that they would test it anyways. Rotella T-6 for instance has proven itself to be quite good in the Subaru scene.

I have very little comprehension of the workings of a FSI, just expanding on your point.

Butt posted from my Galaxy Note II

 

[zrickety]

The truth is VW doesn't care beyond warranty miles, say 60k. It's obviously an issue, but some guys make 100k without failure. It's wishful thinking for manufacturers to list checking any parts beyond brake pads and wiper blades.
People just need to research cars before they buy, and inspect the follower if it's history is in doubt.

 

[ides1056]

I am grateful that this forum has made me aware of the issue, even though my car is stock. I am approaching 20K miles, and will talk with the old guy who works on my car. He'll know what to do.