6
ChiChat17: Boosted Learns How To Cook
- Thread starter TSI_Guy
- Start date
- Status
OmniGLH
Autocross Newbie
Braking is one of those skills that can almost always be improved upon. I'll offer up some insight as it's something that's been on my mind lately as I get closer to getting back on the real track (vs. the virtual one).
LATE braking isn't always the answer. Without knowing where YOU are braking relative to Ken, etc., I'll say there is a chance they might not be doing it right either.
I used to think that the fast way around was to compress the braking zone as much as possible. As some friends of mine invested in hiring professional driving coaches (serious coaches, not the clowns like me who "instruct" at DE's lol).... and I listened to the feedback they received... I started paying closer attention to myself. And started playing around with telemetry data. First on iRacing (about 2 years ago) and now with the Cayman, I have an AiM system and plan to roll over the things I've learned in iRacing to real life.
Specifically, HOW the braking zone is attacked.
I know something I see in almost all of my n00b to intermediate DE students: their brake pedal pressure INCREASES as they get deeper into the brake zone. That is NOT the right way to do it. Then as they "get faster", they only wait longer, but then brake harder still as they get deeper.
The way to brake is a strong INITIAL application of the brakes, followed by a smooth tapering off as you traverse the braking zone and enter the corner. How far into the corner you continue with brake pressure depends on the car's balance, etc. Some cars need it (early 911s etc to keep weight on the nose), some cars don't.
So I've started to learn that. And it's definitely faster. And smoother. It keeps heat out of the brakes, it also keeps the car settled. There isn't a sudden POP of the front end as you drop the brakes, and the nose springs back up.
See Picture 1: Blue trace is me, red trace is n00b.
And I started comparing my data to pro's. I spent some time talking to Dan Clarke, a pro coach, over the last 2 weeks as he and I teamed up to help my buddy Mo with my simulator. We did a lot of data work between him and Mo and I took the chance to overlay his data against some of my laps.
And what the pro's do? While they follow the same concept I described above (initial heavy followed by a tapering) - they very consistently brake (ready for this?) EARLIER. They get on the brakes 50-75' EARLIER than I do. And they brake with LESS overall pressure.
In other words, the car "rolls" more. And while the chart above and below are pulled from iRacing - this is only because it's what I have easy access to. Mo and other friends have all said the same thing when working with Dan and other pro's in real life.
See pic 2: My pressure trace is the blue. Dan Clarke's is the red. This is entering T1 at VIR.
This keeps heat OUT of the brakes (more airflow cooling things at higher speeds when the pressure is higher) plus it leaves you with margin to ADD braking if something happens in front of you.
Something to think about the next time you're out at the track. Pay attention to how you're braking.
Yep I made some $$$ with mine.... when it ran right... eating up 5.0 Mustangs and the (then hot) brand new '93 LT1 Camaros and Trans-Ams....
OmniGLH
Autocross Newbie
It's hard to learn. I've made strides in the simulator, and reviewing the one day I did at Blackhawk in my car, I'm getting the concept down.
But even guys WAY faster than me are still fighting to get it down.
For reference: my buddy Jim did that 2:41.8 in a 650hp Z06 on Sport Cups. Granted they're not slicks, but they're a decent track tire.
My buddy Mo is somewhere in the mid 2:30's... in a 325hp Cayman (on Pirelli slicks). He's exponentially better at driving than my buddy Jim. And he's still working through how to do it - because Dan Clarke has gone faster in the same car.
Last edited:
BoostedVW11
Drag Racing Champion
1. Your Blue braking line, why is it so peaky and not flat? Is that from the variations in the surface of the road coming up through the brake pedal? Dan clarks braking line in your next example is extremely flat, im sure from practice but could it have to do with weakness of left foot IF left foot braking? Which leads to next question
2. Your braking line again, is this a left foot brake or a standard braking?
3. The idea that a late brake isnt actually faster does make a lot of sense, its only really good application is wheel to wheel racing for position into a turn.
4. Possibly a bad practice but do you by chance coast the last i dunno 5-10% of a straight before entering braking zone. I find if i drag race into a turn and go for that higher MPH into a turn its sort of backwards cause while yes my entry speed is higher, i have to brake much harder to slow down...if i enter slightly slower theres less time spent slowing down.
Example 1 of the noobs braking pressure is a great way to spin a porsche around a sweeper by lifting the rear up around the turn.
My braking style is definitely more the red noob style...brakes until i think im good and then if coming in too hot apply even more. Very good graph thanks for posting, this shows ill really have to work on my braking this year.
Are these times above at autobahn full track? If so thats extremely quick especially with only 325 hp
Does anybody know what a decent time for blackhawk farms is?
2. Your braking line again, is this a left foot brake or a standard braking?
3. The idea that a late brake isnt actually faster does make a lot of sense, its only really good application is wheel to wheel racing for position into a turn.
4. Possibly a bad practice but do you by chance coast the last i dunno 5-10% of a straight before entering braking zone. I find if i drag race into a turn and go for that higher MPH into a turn its sort of backwards cause while yes my entry speed is higher, i have to brake much harder to slow down...if i enter slightly slower theres less time spent slowing down.
Example 1 of the noobs braking pressure is a great way to spin a porsche around a sweeper by lifting the rear up around the turn.
My braking style is definitely more the red noob style...brakes until i think im good and then if coming in too hot apply even more. Very good graph thanks for posting, this shows ill really have to work on my braking this year.
Are these times above at autobahn full track? If so thats extremely quick especially with only 325 hp
Does anybody know what a decent time for blackhawk farms is?
Last edited:
OmniGLH
Autocross Newbie
1. Your Blue braking line, why is it so peaky and not flat? Is that from the variations in the surface of the road coming up through the brake pedal? Dan clarks braking line in your next example is extremely flat, im sure from practice but could it have to do with weakness of left foot IF left foot braking? Which leads to next question
So the "not so smoothness" of my blue trace is in part to a few things:
- I think I am getting some electronic noise in my load cell on the simulator
- My foot itself not being perfectly steady
- Me listening to "tire squeal" in the simulator, to detect lockup. I hear the squeal get louder, I ease up, squeal softens, I apply more. In a real car, I'd actually FEEL the lockup and my butt and inner-ear is a lot more sensitive.
- That said - yes, I notice the difference in smoothness, I have noticed it when comparing my traces to others as well and am trying to figure it out. In the real car I do not have this pattern so for me, it's isolated to the simulator
No, this is all right-foot braking. I stopped doing LFB years ago in the simulator since I don't do it in real life.
Yeah it makes sense. The hard part is breaking old habits and putting it into practice.
Something I really look forward to being able to work on at the LAPS advanced days, where it's just solid green flag for 3 hours. Can go out, try it, come in and review data to see if I'm "getting it", then go back out and try some more, etc. Works better than blowing a 30 min session doing it wrong, then sitting around for an hour waiting for the next 30 min session.
You're likely over-slowing. I think your issue has less to do with the concept of carrying higher speed in, and more of a mental block and fighting the panic sensation of hitting a turn faster than you're used to.
A better way to try it would be to START braking at the same spot. But STOP braking sooner. Get off the brakes and keep the speed up. Then work on doing that same braking procedure (pedal pressure, duration on the brakes, etc.) but start later.
Easier said than done.
This takes a while to sort out. And part of the challenge is accepting that you will spend multiple events going *slower* than you usually go, lap times will suck, etc. while you learn.Well then that's an easy first step. Work on flipping it around.
Think of it like this: say you want your turn entry speed to be 70mph, on the nose. So 70.0000 mph. Not 70.0001 mph.
Your max speed before getting on the brakes for the turn is 120, so you have to shed 50mph.
What's the most reliable way to hit 70.0000 on the nose? Being HARD on the brakes RIGHT UP to 70mph, then jumping off?
Or perhaps approaching 70mph slowly and smoothly?
So use the HARD pedal to take the big chunks of speed off. You can slice away 20-30mph without needing to be terribly accurate, you just need to take a big chunk of speed away. Then as you slow, you start slowing your rate of deceleration, looking for more precision. By the time you get to 71mph, you're easing the speed down to a nice, precise landing at 70.0000.
uglybastard
Autocross Champion
almost humpday
flying_solo
Go Kart Champion
That’s heart breaking especially with the kid situation. After losing a very close friend this February and working through it with the family, it sucks.
uglybastard
Autocross Champion
wish i had room for a mk2 in my life right meow
cbaumy34
Go Kart Champion
uglybastard
Autocross Champion
only if it comes with a different house with a 2 car garage
DASVDUB
Drag Racing Champion
Ah some much not good news. Sorry to hear!!
Is it bad I kinda want to sell mk7 GTI and buy a tiguan???
That being said who wants to buy an mk7????
And or a mk2..... [emoji3]
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Want to buy lift springs? Iono
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
EJBGTIVI
Autocross Champion
Ah some much not good news. Sorry to hear!!
Is it bad I kinda want to sell mk7 GTI and buy a tiguan???
That being said who wants to buy an mk7????
And or a mk2..... [emoji3]
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
How much are you asking for the MK2 again? Any rust? Everything works? How's the clutch...can it handle a VR6?
- Status